Legislature(2009 - 2010)BETHEL

10/12/2009 01:00 PM House RESOURCES


Download Mp3. <- Right click and save file as

Audio Topic
01:15:10 PM Start
01:15:10 PM Current State of the Arctic/yukon/kuskokwim (ayk) Salmon Fisheries
04:50:30 PM HB227
05:09:41 PM Current State of the Arctic/yukon/kuskokwim (ayk) Salmon Fisheries
05:35:40 PM Energy Issues Including Transportation Corridor To/from Paimuit/kalskag
05:55:17 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
Location: Bethel City Council Chambers,
Bethel City Hall, 300 Chief Eddie Hoffman
Highway, Bethel, AK
+ Current state of the Arctic/Yukon/ TELECONFERENCED
Kuskokwim (AYK) Salmon Fisheries
Informational hearing on HB 227 HOLITNA
BASIN RESERVE
Energy issues including transportation
corridor to/from Paimuit/Kalskag
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         Bethel, Alaska                                                                                         
                        October 12, 2009                                                                                        
                           1:15 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Mark Neuman, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Craig Johnson, Co-Chair                                                                                          
Representative Bryce Edgmon                                                                                                     
Representative David Guttenberg                                                                                                 
Representative Chris Tuck                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Kurt Olson                                                                                                       
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Peggy Wilson                                                                                                     
Representative Scott Kawasaki                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bob Herron                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
OVERVIEW(S):                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Current state of the Arctic/Yukon/Kuskokwim (AYK) salmon                                                                      
fisheries                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Informational hearing on HB 227 HOLITNA BASIN RESERVE                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Energy   issues   including   transportation   corridor   to/from                                                             
Paimuit/Kalskag                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to report                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MYRON P. NANENG, SR., President                                                                                                 
Association of Village Council Presidents (AVCP)                                                                                
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
charged  that  the  government is  mismanaging  the  Yukon  River                                                               
salmon  fishery and  urged that  the tribes  and villages  in the                                                               
region be included in fisheries management decisions.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
KAREN GILLIS, Executive Director                                                                                                
Bering Sea Fishermen's Association (BSFA)                                                                                       
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
testified  that  despite  the  salmon  declines  within  the  AYK                                                               
Region,  the  state  has  not   appropriated  adequate  funds  to                                                               
research and determine the cause.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MARY PETE, Director                                                                                                             
Kuskokwim Campus                                                                                                                
College of Rural and Community Development                                                                                      
University of Alaska Fairbanks                                                                                                  
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
spoke  from  the  perspective  of an  anthropologist  as  to  the                                                               
importance of fish, particularly salmon, to Alaska Natives.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
NICK TUCKER                                                                                                                     
Emmonak, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
cited improper management  by the government as the  cause of the                                                               
Yukon  River  salmon  decline  and urged  that  local  people  be                                                               
included in management decisions.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
JACK SCHULTHEIS                                                                                                                 
Emmonak, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
testified that  despite the extreme management  measures taken on                                                               
the  Yukon River,  things have  only gotten  worse and  the lower                                                               
Yukon economy is now in shambles.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
NICK ANDREW, JR.                                                                                                                
Ohogamiut Traditional Council                                                                                                   
Marshall, Alaska                                                                                                                
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
maintained that state  and federal management of  the lower Yukon                                                               
River fisheries  is impairing the  ability of Native  Alaskans to                                                               
harvest adequate food supplies.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
JULIE RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN, Social Scientist                                                                                       
Kawerak, Inc.                                                                                                                   
Nome, Alaska                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
charged that  current state and  federal management  has resulted                                                               
in disaster  for the region's  salmon resources and  crippling of                                                               
subsistence activities.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MIKE SMITH                                                                                                                      
Tanana Chiefs Conference (TCC)                                                                                                  
Fairbanks, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
reviewed TCC's concerns  about the viability of  Yukon River King                                                               
Salmon.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
GENE PELTOLA, Refuge Manager                                                                                                    
Yukon Delta National Wildlife Refuge                                                                                            
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS)                                                                                          
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
testified that the Kuskokwim drainage is not in dire straits.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
JOHN WHITE, D.D.S.                                                                                                              
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
urged  that the  salmon fishery  situation in  Western Alaska  be                                                               
addressed now, before the fishery completely collapses.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
ROBERT NICK                                                                                                                     
Nunapitchuk, Alaska                                                                                                             
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
urged there be  more reliance on the knowledge  of local advisory                                                               
committees and elders when management decisions are being made.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
JILL KLEIN, Executive Director                                                                                                  
Yukon River Drainage Fisheries Association (YRDFA)                                                                              
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
stressed the  importance of  subsistence and  supported inclusion                                                               
of tribal governments in the management of Yukon River salmon.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
JOHN HILSINGER, Director                                                                                                        
Division of Commercial Fisheries                                                                                                
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G)                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
answered  questions   and  provided  information   regarding  the                                                               
state's management of salmon fisheries within the region.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CRAIG FLEENER, Director                                                                                                         
Division of Subsistence                                                                                                         
Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
answered questions regarding subsistence.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MARTIN MOORE                                                                                                                    
Emmonak, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
provided  historical income  statistics  from commercial  fishing                                                               
and  reported that  closures of  the  subsistence fisheries  have                                                               
caused hardship to the region's people.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DANI    EVENSON,    Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim   Regional    Research                                                               
Supervisor                                                                                                                      
Division of Commercial Fisheries                                                                                                
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G)                                                                                        
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
answered  questions   and  provided  information   regarding  the                                                               
state's management of salmon fisheries in the region.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
JOHN LINDERMAN, Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim Regional Supervisor                                                                      
Division of Commercial Fisheries                                                                                                
Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G)                                                                                        
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on AYK salmon fisheries,                                                             
answered  questions   and  provided  information   regarding  the                                                               
state's management of salmon fisheries in the region.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
GREG ROCZICKA, Director                                                                                                         
Natural Resource Program                                                                                                        
Orutsararmuit Native Council                                                                                                    
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  informational hearing on HB 227,                                                             
outlined the importance of the  Holitna River drainage for salmon                                                               
and wildlife  production and its  importance as a  breadbasket to                                                               
the area's subsistence users.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
GRANT FAIRBANKS                                                                                                                 
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  informational hearing on HB 227,                                                             
testified that  the Holitna River  needs to be  protected because                                                               
it is a breadbasket for the area's residents.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MIKE HOFFMAN, Executive Vice President                                                                                          
Association of Village Council Presidents (AVCP)                                                                                
Bethel, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  During the  hearing on energy issues and the                                                             
transportation corridor  between Paimuit  and Kalskag,  urged the                                                               
state to  be a partner in  building a road between  the Yukon and                                                               
Kuskokwim rivers.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:15:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MARK   NEUMAN  called  the  House   Resources  Standing                                                             
Committee meeting to  order at 1:15 p.m.  Present  at the call to                                                               
order   were   Representatives   Edgmon   (via   teleconference),                                                               
Guttenberg  (via  teleconference),   Tuck  (via  teleconference),                                                               
Johnson  (via  teleconference)  and  Neuman.   Also  present  was                                                               
Representative Herron.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
^OVERVIEW(S):                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
^Current  state   of  the  Arctic/Yukon/Kuskokwim   (AYK)  salmon                                                             
fisheries                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:15:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN announced that the first order of business is a                                                                 
review of the current state of the Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim (AYK)                                                                 
salmon fisheries.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:15:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MYRON P.  NANENG, SR., President, Association  of Village Council                                                               
Presidents  (AVCP), stated  that AVCP  represents 56  villages on                                                               
the  Yukon-Kuskokwim  Delta  and that  AVCP's  concern  regarding                                                               
management of  the fisheries in the  Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim (AYK)                                                               
Region has been  building over the years.  As  a former member of                                                               
the  "Yukon-Canada  fish  negotiating   team,"  he  said  he  has                                                               
attended numerous Board of Fisheries  meetings addressing some of                                                               
the  management plans  regarding  the Yukon  and Kuskokwim  river                                                               
area.   The  state's  claim  of being  the  best fishery  manager                                                               
leaves a  lot to be  desired and  the AVCP questions  this claim.                                                               
"Right  now the  lower Yukon  villages are  experiencing economic                                                               
genocide," he  said.  The  once thriving salmon economy  that ran                                                               
from June through September has all but disappeared.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. NANENG announced  that AVCP has put the  Alaska Department of                                                               
Fish  & Game's  (ADF&G)  Division of  Subsistence  and the  Yukon                                                               
River Drainage  Fisheries Association (YRDFA) on  notice that any                                                               
management plans  coming forth  from these  entities will  not be                                                               
honored   by  the   AVCP's  villages   unless  there   is  tribal                                                               
consultation.    The  YRDFA is  a  membership  organization  that                                                               
represents  those people  who have  paid dues  to be  members; it                                                               
does not represent AVCP's tribal members within the villages.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  NANENG  pointed  out  that   the  region's  people  are  not                                                               
consulted  by ADF&G  and  the department  is  managing the  Yukon                                                               
River with  sonar only, rather  than actually getting out  on the                                                               
water.  He recommended the  villages be made participants in test                                                               
fisheries because  the river  system has  changed while  the test                                                               
fisheries stay at the same  location.  He said Commissioner Denby                                                               
Lloyd  needs to  be replaced  because ADF&G's  management of  the                                                               
fisheries indicates  the department  does not  care and  does not                                                               
want  AVCP's  people to  eat  or  earn money  through  commercial                                                               
fishing.   At  a time  when the  need for  more research  or more                                                               
money for the  region has been most dire, the  money has been re-                                                               
allocated elsewhere.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:20:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. NANENG  urged that the  Division of Subsistence  consult with                                                               
the tribes  as well  as each and  every village,  especially when                                                               
ADF&G identifies  a conservation concern  and wants to  place the                                                               
burden  of  conservation  on AVCP's  people.    The  conservation                                                               
burden  placed on  the people  of the  lower Yukon  villages this                                                               
past summer  was very expensive,  he said,  both for the  lack of                                                               
food and  the lack of  money.  This  winter the people  will once                                                               
again have to choose between food and fuel.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:21:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. NANENG, in response to  Co-Chair Neuman, explained that based                                                               
on  reports and  observations made  to AVCP  [this past  summer],                                                               
ADF&G relied  primarily upon the  sonar located at  Pilot Station                                                               
about 80 miles  upriver from the mouth of the  river.  He related                                                               
that according to  the person monitoring the sonar,  the sonar on                                                               
the  left side  of  the river  was  unreliable and  nonfunctional                                                               
until June  21.   Six days  into the  subsistence season  for the                                                               
lower  Yukon people,  the Chinook  salmon fishery  was completely                                                               
closed for 10 days.   However, people in AVCP's villages observed                                                               
a strong run  of kings prior to the closure  and this information                                                               
was  not incorporated  into the  management plan.   Additionally,                                                               
the  Marshall  Test  Fishery, located  about  the  Pilot  Station                                                               
sonar, was not operational.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:23:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  NANENG, in  response to  Representative Herron,  argued that                                                               
something is  wrong with  the system when  thousands of  fish are                                                               
thrown  away out  in the  Bering Sea  while people  on the  river                                                               
system are barred  from getting 100 salmon for food.   If this is                                                               
continued,  then  maybe   the  salmon  ought  to   be  listed  as                                                               
endangered  because  that would  impact  the  people out  in  the                                                               
Bering Sea as well as AVCP's people on the river system.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON asked what  the difference would be between                                                               
including the tribes in management  decisions versus the advisory                                                               
committees.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  NANENG  replied  that  over  the years  AVCP  has  seen  the                                                               
advisory committees provide  input to the Board  of Fisheries and                                                               
the Board  of Game  only to  come away  from those  meetings with                                                               
their  information ignored,  more often  than not,  when the  two                                                               
boards make  their ultimate decisions.   That is why it  would be                                                               
better  for  AVCP's villages,  or  for  ADF&G,  or even  for  the                                                               
Division  of Subsistence,  to go  to tribal  consultation because                                                               
membership in  the tribes is  inclusive of all the  people living                                                               
in those communities.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:25:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KAREN   GILLIS,  Executive   Director,  Bering   Sea  Fishermen's                                                               
Association (BSFA),  noted that  the AYK Region  encompasses over                                                               
49 percent  of the state.   Salmon returns  to the AYK  have been                                                               
subject  to 15  state and  federal disaster  declarations in  the                                                               
last 15  years, she reported.   Today  there are seven  stocks of                                                               
concern around the state and four  are in the AYK Region:  Norton                                                               
Sound  Subdistrict 1,  Chum Salmon;  Norton Sound  Subdistricts 2                                                               
and 3,  Chum Salmon; Norton  Sound Subdistricts 5 and  6, Chinook                                                               
Salmon; and Yukon River Chinook Salmon.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GILLIS,  in  reference  to  the health  of  the  AYK  salmon                                                               
fisheries,  said she  thinks the  word health  is an  interesting                                                               
word because to some people  health means abundance and to others                                                               
it means  no illnesses.   The characterization by ADF&G  that all                                                               
of  Alaska's  fisheries  are healthy  is  an  overstatement,  she                                                               
contended.    She  quoted  a  statement  from  a  letter  in  the                                                               
publication,  Sustaining  Alaska's   Fisheries:  Fifty  Years  of                                                             
Statehood, in which the ADF&G commissioner wrote:                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     An  essential  element of  our  fishing  industry is  a                                                                    
     management system that uses  the best science available                                                                    
     to keep  species and stocks healthy  while allowing for                                                                    
     harvests  sufficient to  support local  communities and                                                                    
     businesses.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:29:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILLIS  said that while  people take understandable  pride in                                                               
the top  performing runs  in Prince  William Sound,  Bristol Bay,                                                               
and  other areas,  people in  the AYK  Region do  not share  that                                                               
sentiment.  The  dark side of Alaska salmon runs  is found in the                                                               
rivers of the AYK Region,  which have been steadily declining for                                                               
nearly two decades.   More alarming than  the declines themselves                                                               
is that  there is no explanation  for why this is  happening, and                                                               
it cannot  be explained why  because there  is not enough  of the                                                               
right information.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILLIS charged that  the commissioner's aforementioned letter                                                               
couches ADF&G's  use of  the term "best  science available."   To                                                               
the  Division of  Commercial  Fisheries,  best science  available                                                               
means  allocating  only 14  percent  of  the regional  management                                                               
budget to a region that encompasses  49 percent of the state.  It                                                               
means allocating  4 percent  of the capital  budget to  this same                                                               
region.  It means allocating almost  3 percent of the total ADF&G                                                               
budget  toward  the  Division  of  Subsistence.    And  it  means                                                               
allocating more  to the commissioner's office  and administrative                                                               
budgets  than the  combined budgets  of  the AYK  portion of  the                                                               
Division   of   Commercial   Fisheries  and   the   Division   of                                                               
Subsistence.   How is  ADF&G even attempting  to garner  the best                                                               
science  available when  it does  not allocate  resources to  the                                                               
fisheries that need  the most attention?  She  contended that AYK                                                               
is one of the least studied  salmon resources in Alaska and, as a                                                               
result, managers  frequently scramble for information  to explain                                                               
the  decline  which underscores  the  lack  of reliable  data  on                                                               
salmon runs.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILLIS  stated that the  15 disaster declarations  have cried                                                               
out for  attention.  Given  the state's  track record in  the AYK                                                               
Region,  BSFA took  things  into  its own  hands  to undertake  a                                                               
research  and restoration  effort  unlike anything  before.   The                                                               
Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim  Sustainable  Salmon  Initiative  (AYKSSI)                                                               
was formed  by a  Memorandum of  Understanding (MOU)  between the                                                               
Bering Sea  Fishermen's Association,  the Association  of Village                                                               
Council Presidents, Tanana Chiefs  Conference, Kawerak, Inc., the                                                               
Alaska Department of  Fish & Game, the  National Marine Fisheries                                                               
Service, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS).                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:32:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GILLIS  said   this  initiative  is  one   of  the  largest,                                                               
successful  experiments in  the  co-management  of fisheries  and                                                               
wildlife research in  North America.  From  2002-2006, the AYKSSI                                                               
received  a total  of $20.5  million from  the State  of Alaska's                                                               
portion of the  Pacific Coastal Salmon Recovery Fund.   The funds                                                               
were  specifically   earmarked  for  use  by   the  collaborative                                                               
research  program.   However, beginning  with the  federal fiscal                                                               
year 2007,  all earmarks  within that fund  were removed  and the                                                               
ADF&G commissioner's  office has  since used an  in-house process                                                               
to allocate the  funds among a set  of users.  Of  the nearly $24                                                               
million awarded  to ADF&G in  federal fiscal year  2007/2008, the                                                               
department  allocated  only  a  token amount  -  less  than  $1.5                                                               
million -  to research funding  in the entire  AYK Region.   As a                                                               
result of ADF&G's  re-direction of funds, the  declines of salmon                                                               
utilized  by  over  70  subsistence  communities  are  not  being                                                               
addressed.  The partnership AYKSSI  thought it had with the State                                                               
of Alaska  has vanished.   No serious  efforts have been  made by                                                               
the  department to  re-establish  funds directed  at the  AYKSSI.                                                               
There  have  been  numerous   accounts  of  department  personnel                                                               
expressing  dissatisfaction   with  the  initiative,   though  no                                                               
concerns have been formally brought to the table.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:35:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILLIS said  she did not come to this  hearing to bash ADF&G;                                                               
rather  her job  is  to  find solutions.    Many current  fishery                                                               
problems  are  the  legacy  of  a misplaced  belief  of  the  in-                                                               
exhaustibility of resources.  If  the state wants to manage these                                                               
fisheries,  then it  needs  to  stop pretending  there  is not  a                                                               
problem and provide resources to achieve a solution.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:36:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GILLIS,  in  response  to  Co-Chair  Neuman,  said  that  in                                                               
addition to the decline of salmon  over the years, she has seen a                                                               
decline in resources to staff positions  in the region as well as                                                               
to projects  in the  waters.  The  Nome Nugget  recently reported                                                             
that the  state is applying for  federal funds for weir  sites on                                                               
the Unalakleet  River and  she thinks the  Chinook stocks  on the                                                               
Unalakleet River are  the stocks that are in the  most trouble in                                                               
Alaska.   She also  pointed out  that the  Pilgrim River  used to                                                               
have a lot of Chinook returns, but only had 49 this year.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:39:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILLIS, in  further response to Co-Chair  Neuman, pointed out                                                               
that  establishment of  the  AYKSSI meant  tribes  and state  and                                                               
federal  leaders were  all at  the table  to collectively  decide                                                               
where the  priorities were within region.   It was not  the State                                                               
of Alaska  telling AVCP what was  going to happen; rather  it was                                                               
the state, AVCP,  Kawerak, TCC, and BFSA agreeing  to where funds                                                               
needed  to be  channeled.   The MOU  was signed  in 2002  and the                                                               
funds have  been 100 percent  obligated and expired in  2007, but                                                               
there will still be projects in the water next season.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. GILLIS,  in response to  Representative Herron,  replied that                                                               
the  health of  the salmon  is in  question because  the size  of                                                               
Yukon Chinook has decreased.  In  regard to this type of pattern,                                                               
she said  she has never seen  a record where there  is a recovery                                                               
to  larger  fish,  and  while she  acknowledges  that  there  are                                                               
arguments about  the validity  of this,  it is  still one  of her                                                               
biggest concerns.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:42:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MARY  PETE,  Director, Kuskokwim  Campus,  College  of Rural  and                                                               
Community  Development,  University  of Alaska  Fairbanks,  noted                                                               
that  she is  trained  as  an anthropologist  and  speaks to  the                                                               
salmon resource from  the perspective of the human  users of that                                                               
resource.   She explained  that subsistence  in general  takes in                                                               
all manner  of resources,  including plants,  and this  goes into                                                               
the   per  capita   harvest  estimates   that  the   Division  of                                                               
Subsistence has been  doing.  The three regions  with the highest                                                               
pounds  per  capita production  of  subsistence  are in  the  AYK                                                               
Region:   the  Arctic region  with  about 515  pounds; the  rural                                                               
Interior region  with 613  pounds; and  Western Alaska,  which is                                                               
the lower  Yukon/lower Kuskokwim  region, with about  664 pounds.                                                               
The  state-wide   average  for  rural  Alaska   shows  that  fish                                                               
comprises  about  60 percent  of  that  production.   In  Western                                                               
Alaska,  fish comprises  60-80 percent  of the  production output                                                               
annually.   In areas  where it  is 80  percent, salmon  figures a                                                               
huge role  in that subsistence  production.  In fact,  she added,                                                               
the Yupik  word for fish  is also the word  for food.   The Yukon                                                               
River's  special  case  as a  trans-boundary  river,  subject  to                                                               
management by a  treaty and an international panel,  has caused a                                                               
lot of  strain in  the people  who use the  resource, as  well as                                                               
managers' relationships with the communities in the region.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:46:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. PETE  said the AYK  Region comprises  118, or 52  percent, of                                                               
the state's  229 tribes.   In  2005 the  rural population  in AYK                                                               
totaled 43,860 people,  with 72 percent of  that population being                                                               
Alaska  Native.   When Fairbanks  and the  upper Yukon  River are                                                               
included, the population  is about 131,000 people.   Therefore, a                                                               
huge  portion of  the state's  population relies  on salmon  from                                                               
that drainage.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:47:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  asked Ms. Pete  to describe any changes  she has                                                               
seen  over the  past 20-25  years of  working either  directly or                                                               
indirectly with the Division of Subsistence.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. PETE  responded that  she started with  the division  in 1984                                                               
and [since then]  there has been a huge change  in people's views                                                               
about the role  of subsistence.  There is  data demonstrating its                                                               
importance and  there is  real science  that demonstrates  how it                                                               
works.   There is no  longer any question on  how it needs  to be                                                               
accommodated.  She  said she thinks managers in  both federal and                                                               
state government take  it seriously and do try  to accommodate it                                                               
and implement the  law as required.  In the  mid-1980s there were                                                               
questions about why  these uses cannot be  accommodated in either                                                               
personal use  or sport regulations.   They cannot and  never can,                                                               
she  continued,  because  they  need   to  be  more  liberal  and                                                               
culturally-based.  They need to  accommodate the way of life that                                                               
they are  supposed to  protect.  In  terms of  perspective, there                                                               
has  been  a  lot  of  growth in  understanding  of  this  really                                                               
important  use  and   growing  respect  for  it.     It  is  very                                                               
complicated,  especially given  that there  are situations  where                                                               
very few people are subsistence-only  users anymore.  People need                                                               
to have other  access in other ways, such  as commercial fishing,                                                               
because this is one  of the very few ways that  there can be wage                                                               
employment.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:50:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
NICK TUCKER, a subsistence and  commercial fisherman, warned that                                                               
the lower  Yukon communities  are on the  verge of  collapse, and                                                               
this collapse is  certain if the state, ADF&G, and  the people do                                                               
not get together.  Restoration  and rebuilding programs that were                                                               
well  underway   to  success  were   disrupted,  he  said.     He                                                               
recommended  looking at  areas outside  the  boundaries of  ADF&G                                                               
management,  such as  the  122,000 Chinook  that  were caught  as                                                               
bycatch in  the Bering Sea/Aleutian  Islands Pollock  fishery and                                                               
the 2005 bycatch of 700,000 Chums.   People must work together on                                                               
these issues and these issues must  be addressed.  There needs to                                                               
be  a  complete  review  and examination  of  how  ADF&G  manages                                                               
fisheries.   He said  he is concerned  about the  feeding grounds                                                               
and habitats  in the  migratory pathway  of the  region's Chinook                                                               
Salmon.   The villages are the  hardest hit every time  there are                                                               
regulations and  restrictions.   It is getting  so bad  that many                                                               
households are  forced to choose  between heating fuel  and food.                                                               
Additionally, villages  have not recouped from  the unprecedented                                                               
2009  flood.   The Board  of Fisheries  and ADF&G  must back  off                                                               
because  the communities  are already  overly depressed,  but the                                                               
salmon resources can still be protected and preserved.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:55:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TUCKER  said he  is also  concerned about  over-escapement of                                                               
salmon which happened in 2005 with  the return of about 1 million                                                               
Chums  and that  return materialized  this fall.   In  some years                                                               
there may be a  weak run of one species and a  healthy run of the                                                               
other, so there needs to  be a re-examination of state priorities                                                               
on  escapement,  subsistence, and  commercial  fishing.   It  may                                                               
require a  commercial fishery  like was done  this fall  when the                                                               
Chums were weak and the Coho  Salmon were coming in strong.  Both                                                               
could  have  been lost,  but  in  order  to  save the  Cohos,  an                                                               
emergency order  was requested to open  up the Coho fishery.   He                                                               
recommended  a re-examination  of some  of the  50-year practices                                                               
and said innovative ideas should be  applied in order to save the                                                               
salmon for the future.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. TUCKER  contended that  there is  a growing  over-emphasis on                                                               
Alaska's treaty obligations with Canada.   He maintained that the                                                               
key treaty words  are "we shall endeavor," and that  this is what                                                               
should be done  in the fisheries.  The minimum  border passage of                                                               
45,000 Chinook is  measured at Eagle, and this  fall about 70,000                                                               
Chinooks  passed   through,  almost  double  the   minimum.    He                                                               
recommended  that it  be started  out with  10-15 percent  of the                                                               
required passage, and then adjusted as the season progresses.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:57:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TUCKER pointed  out that oftentimes the lower  Yukon River is                                                               
bombarded  with severe  regulations, restrictions,  closures, and                                                               
windows, only  to discover  the following  winter that  there had                                                               
been good escapements.  He  said he therefore recommends starting                                                               
out with  a 10-15 percent harvest  of the protected run  and then                                                               
making  adjustments to  get some  over-escapement.   He contended                                                               
that the management method of  erring on the side of conservation                                                               
may  have been  the cause  of  the catastrophic  impact on  lower                                                               
Yukon  fisheries.   It  is time  to  consider co-management  with                                                               
local people,  he continued, because  elders and  local fishermen                                                               
know well  about the river  conditions and how they  change every                                                               
year.    He  urged  the  replacement  or  upgrade  of  the  sonar                                                               
equipment   because   of   the   problem   with   under-counting.                                                               
Additionally,  the  turnover  problem   with  the  personnel  who                                                               
actually do the sonar counting needs to be looked at.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:02:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TUCKER urged  that local  elders  and experienced  fishermen                                                               
also  be  involved  in  the  test  fisheries  to  provide  better                                                               
management.    Testing  should  be  moved  to  other  sites  when                                                               
necessary,  he  said,  given  that  the  Yukon  River  is  always                                                               
changing.   The ideal way  to test  fish abundance is  to observe                                                               
the local fishermen.   Fish runs are correlated  with the coastal                                                               
tides and  these tides trigger  when to  fish during the  day and                                                               
where to fish at different distances  from the coast line.  Local                                                               
hire is advantageous and can save ADF&G money.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:03:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TUCKER,  in regard  to subsistence, read  a statement  by Ms.                                                               
Ernestine Andrew, now  living in Bethel, that was  printed in the                                                               
October  2009  edition  of  the Greatlander  Bush  Mailer.    Her                                                             
statement  was  made in  response  to  the question,  Are  moose,                                                               
caribou, and Alaskan fish important to you?  He read as follows:                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Alaskan  food is  part of  my life,  because it  is all                                                                    
     natural,  organically  grown,  and  kept  right  in  my                                                                    
     backyard which is the land.   I know the fish that swim                                                                    
     up the  river is fresh, not  farmed.  The moose  is not                                                                    
     injected with growth hormones.   The greens and berries                                                                    
     aren't  sprayed  with  chemicals.    My  food  I  catch                                                                    
     doesn't go  through a laser  scanner with  a ridiculous                                                                    
     high price tag.  It is  100 percent natural.  We have a                                                                    
     10,000  year  sacred  attachment  to  both  our  summer                                                                    
     subsistence  fishing and  other year  round subsistence                                                                    
     activities.  ...  Because  we  have  been  forced  into                                                                    
     larger communities, it  takes money to do  all our year                                                                    
     round  subsistence  activities.    Our  fish  and  game                                                                    
     resources  are further  away due  to the  noise in  the                                                                    
     communities.  ...  Joblessness  is  very  high  in  our                                                                    
     villages, so  any income that supports  our subsistence                                                                    
     activities  is both  cherished and  precious.   This is                                                                    
        where our commercial fishing plays a major role.                                                                        
     Today this way of life is threatened. ...                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:05:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TUCKER, in regard to  tribal inclusions, noted that Alaska is                                                               
unusually vast with cultures and  traditions varying from village                                                               
to  village.   Dialects and  languages have  to be  translated to                                                               
other Alaska Natives, he said.   It takes years for others to get                                                               
a good  sense of who  Alaska Natives are,  what they do,  and how                                                               
they  live.   Many  Alaska  Natives have  two  cultures and  have                                                               
learned from  their ancestors about  tribal law.   Alaska Natives                                                               
know  best  who they  are,  how  they  should  live, and  how  to                                                               
preserve their resources.   It is advantageous  to include Native                                                               
tribes because the knowledge, wisdom,  and experience are already                                                               
there.  Alaska  Natives have given their  allegiance and loyalty,                                                               
and in  return are asking  for respect and  trust.  The  first 50                                                               
years of  fish and game management  has been one sided,  he said,                                                               
and that  time is past.   He continued:   "We can  think side-by-                                                               
side, work together,  plan together, and study together.   At the                                                               
day's  end  we  can  look  forward  to  a  more  responsible  and                                                               
effective  management   of  our  salmon  resources   and  address                                                               
together other areas  that endanger it. ... It will  take both of                                                               
us to save these resources and our communities."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:09:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JACK SCHULTHEIS first noted that  he has been involved with lower                                                               
Yukon  commercial  fisheries  since  1974.    There  has  been  a                                                               
commercial fishery  on the lower  Yukon since 1950, he  said, and                                                               
in the  1960s and  forward, the Yukon  fishery was  classified as                                                               
one of  the most  stable fisheries  in the  state that  was under                                                               
ADF&G management.   About 12 years  ago a dramatic shift  in fish                                                               
runs occurred  in all of  Western Alaska from Bristol  Bay north.                                                               
Emergency  disasters were  declared.   The  department and  other                                                               
agencies reacted.   Today, Bristol Bay is  having spectacular and                                                               
reliable runs.   The Kuskokwim River, Norton  Sound, and Kotzebue                                                               
have, for  the most part, healed,  and most of the  fisheries are                                                               
having healthy  returns as well  as viable  commercial fisheries.                                                               
There  is now  a record  size Coho  run in  Norton Sound.   Chum,                                                               
Coho, and King returns in the  Kuskokwim are at normal.  Kotzebue                                                               
is  having  the  highest  catch   rate  in  the  history  of  the                                                               
commercial  fishery.   He acknowledged  there are  some cases  in                                                               
Western Alaska  where there  are some issues,  but said  that for                                                               
the most  part the runs  in Western Alaska  are back to  normal -                                                               
except the Yukon River.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHULTHEIS said  there is no other way to  describe the Yukon                                                               
other  than  to  say it  is  a  mess.    After years  of  extreme                                                               
conservative management,  severe sacrifices forced  down people's                                                               
throats  under  the  guise  of   necessary  management,  and  the                                                               
constant excuse of meeting Canadian  escapement, things have only                                                               
gotten worse.   The entire economy  on the lower Yukon  is now in                                                               
shambles.   At  an advisory  committee meeting  in Marshall  last                                                               
week, adults actually cried over what  has happened out here.  He                                                               
noted that he  is the general manager of  Kwik'pak Fisheries, the                                                               
last major  processor left on  the lower  Yukon.  Ten  to fifteen                                                               
years ago, this  fishery had an ex-vessel value  to the fishermen                                                               
of $15-$20  million, he  said.   In 2008,  that number  shrank to                                                               
about $1.5 million.   This year, ex-vessel value  was $677,000 or                                                               
4 percent of what used to be normal.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:14:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHULTHEIS  urged the committee to  understand the villagers'                                                               
hardship of  trying to exist  on 4 percent  of what they  used to                                                               
make.  The frustration is  that despite all the extreme measures,                                                               
things  are  getting  worse instead  of  better,  he  reiterated.                                                               
Additionally, there  never seems to  be any answers for  why this                                                               
is  happening.   Fisheries  to  the north  and  south are  viable                                                               
commercial fisheries,  but the Yukon River  keeps getting churned                                                               
up over and over.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:15:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHULTHEIS  pointed out  that  at  one  time there  were  14                                                               
processors  actively working  on  the Yukon.    Many were  little                                                               
family-run  businesses  that operated  from  Black  River on  the                                                               
coast and  all the way  up through Eagle.   Local-hire employment                                                               
totaled  several hundred  residents from  the villages  all along                                                               
the  Yukon.   There  were fisheries,  fish  processors, and  fish                                                               
businesses in every district of the  Yukon.  Payrolls were in the                                                               
millions  of dollars.   The  first wholesale  price of  the catch                                                               
exceeded  $33  million; this  year  it  will barely  exceed  $1.3                                                               
million.  The fishery tied into  local commerce - people from the                                                               
villages  were  starting their  own  businesses,  such as  taxis,                                                               
restaurants,  grocery  stores.    The  economy  was  starting  to                                                               
flourish and now it is wrapped  up in despair.  Revenues in these                                                               
municipalities  are primarily  from  sales taxes.    At one  time                                                               
Emmonak  had such  a healthy  sales  tax revenue  that there  was                                                               
garbage  collection,  fire   protection,  and  road  maintenance.                                                               
Those services are  now things of the past and  today Emmonak can                                                               
barely keep  its lights on.   The best one  can hope for  is safe                                                               
water.   Wherever  there is  poverty there  are social  problems.                                                               
Alcoholism,  drug   abuse,  suicides,  burglary,   assaults,  and                                                               
domestic violence have all risen  since the fishery collapsed and                                                               
the villages are being overwhelmed by this.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHULTHEIS  said no  other fishery  in the  state is  in this                                                               
predicament.    He  related  that in  2008,  an  ADF&G  biologist                                                               
estimated  that the  harvest of  over 1  million Chum  Salmon was                                                               
forgone,  which  would  have  put  $6  million  into  the  area's                                                               
economy.   There have  been extreme surpluses  that led  to over-                                                               
escapement,  which   in  turn  led   to  further   run  failures.                                                               
Unreliable  sonar   reports  have   prevented  and   stopped  the                                                               
prosecution of both commercial and subsistence fisheries.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:20:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHULTHEIS reported  that even worse was that  both the state                                                               
and  the U.S.  Fish  and Wildlife  Service  wrote citations  this                                                               
season on people who were just  trying to get food to eat; people                                                               
on the verge of total economic  collapse were not allowed to eat.                                                               
Despite a budget of millions of  dollars and a staff of 32, ADF&G                                                               
still cannot at this time say  how many salmon came up the river.                                                               
Would  this  level  of  competency  be  tolerated  in  any  other                                                               
fishery, he asked.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:22:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
NICK ANDREW,  JR., Ohogamiut  Traditional Council,  first thanked                                                               
Mr. Tucker  for his  eloquence and  for bringing  up many  of the                                                               
same points  that he  wanted to  touch on.   He also  thanked Mr.                                                               
Schultheis for his  economic perspective of this  crisis.  People                                                               
are going  through hard  times, he stressed.   Elders  are asking                                                               
when the  restrictions on the river  will be lifted.   He said he                                                               
and other council  members have walked about the  village to talk                                                               
with elders and  families.  By late June in  most years, everyone                                                               
in the  village usually  has his or  her subsistence  King Salmon                                                               
needs met, but that  did not happen in June 2009.   The state and                                                               
federal fisheries  managers were  relying on  the sonar  at Pilot                                                               
Station.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. ANDREW related that elders in  the village told him and other                                                               
Ohogamiut Traditional  Council members  that a  lot of  fish were                                                               
going  by.   Additionally, long-time  commercial and  subsistence                                                               
fishermen explained that a fluctuation  of the river water up and                                                               
down  indicates a  heavy run  is passing  by the  village -  this                                                               
happened  three times  in  June.   As  more  people came  forward                                                               
stating that  they did  not have  any King  Salmon, or  enough to                                                               
sustain  themselves for  the  winter,  the Ohogamiut  Traditional                                                               
Council  decided  to   take  action.    A   protest  fishery  was                                                               
sanctioned and  authorized by  the council to  send a  message to                                                               
the State of Alaska and  the governor that villagers needed fish.                                                               
The  2008  energy  crisis  drove   the  cost  of  living  to  the                                                               
stratosphere.  Both ADF&G and the  USFWS needed to hear that what                                                               
they were doing  was hurting Marshall and  affecting the people's                                                               
ability to feed themselves in the coming winter.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:26:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ANDREW  said the  Ohogamiut  Traditional  Council wants  the                                                               
[Bering  Sea/Aleutian Islands]  Pollock Fishery  to receive  some                                                               
attention.  This  Pollock fishery kills hundreds  of thousands of                                                               
the villager's salmon resources, he  pointed out, and tosses them                                                               
as bycatch without  penalty.  That is an injustice  to the Alaska                                                               
Native  people  who  have inherent,  customary,  and  traditional                                                               
rights  to the  river and  its  resources, and  these rights  are                                                               
being  ignored.   He agreed  with Mr.  Tucker's portrayal  of how                                                               
important salmon  are to the  Native people.  Everything  in this                                                               
day  and  age needs  scientific  proof,  and Native  people  have                                                               
scientific proof  that goes back more  than 10,000 years.   It is                                                               
time that the state and  federal government recognize subsistence                                                               
priority for rural  Alaska Natives, he stressed.  This  is not an                                                               
urban versus  rural issue, it  is a humanitarian issue.   Studies                                                               
show that  Alaska Natives in this  region eat a lot  of wild game                                                               
and this is scientific fact that cannot be ignored.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:28:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  BOB HERRON  asked whether  ADF&G has  talked with                                                               
Mr. Andrews about the concerns he just addressed.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. ANDREW  responded that  a delegation came  out in  late June,                                                               
following several  of his press  releases that included  the term                                                               
"civil disobedience."   This delegation included  ADF&G, USFWS, a                                                               
state trooper,  and several  other individuals.   There is  not a                                                               
good dialogue with the fisheries  managers, he said, and the only                                                               
dialogue  he has  had is  [ADF&G's] email  alerts announcing  the                                                               
openings and closures of subsistence and commercial fishing.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:30:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JULIE RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN, Social  Scientist, Kawerak, Inc., stated                                                               
she is presenting  her testimony on behalf  of her organization's                                                               
constituents.  She testified:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Subsistence  users  throughout  the  Norton  Sound  and                                                                    
     Bering Strait  region are  gravely concerned  about the                                                                    
     continuing decline  of our regional salmon  stocks.  We                                                                    
     are  particularly frustrated  that  our residents  bear                                                                    
     the  full  burden  of conservation  for  these  stocks,                                                                    
     while  commercial   fishermen  continue   to  intercept                                                                    
     salmon  bound   for  our  rivers  with   little  or  no                                                                    
     regulation.   While our  subsistence users  face severe                                                                    
     restrictions,  federal   and  state-managed  commercial                                                                    
     fisheries continue to harvest  huge numbers of Chum and                                                                    
     Chinook salmon bound for our  region's rivers.  Kawerak                                                                    
     supports  immediate  salmon  bycatch limits  and  other                                                                    
     conservation  measures for  Bering Sea  trawl fisheries                                                                    
     and  the  South  Peninsula/False  Pass  Sockeye  Salmon                                                                    
     fishery   to  prevent   the  loss   of  our   important                                                                    
     subsistence  salmon resources.   We  also request  that                                                                    
     funds be  appropriated to  advance salmon  research and                                                                    
     restoration efforts in Western Alaska.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     As the  National Marine Fisheries Service  noted in the                                                                    
     Bering   Sea   salmon  bycatch   environmental   impact                                                                    
     statement prepared last year:   "The first priority for                                                                    
     management  is to  meet  spawning  escapement goals  to                                                                    
     sustain  salmon   resources  for   future  generations.                                                                    
     Highest  priority use  is  for  subsistence under  both                                                                    
     state and federal law.   Surplus fish beyond escapement                                                                    
     needs and subsistence use are  made available for other                                                                    
     uses."    While subsistence  needs  are  listed as  the                                                                    
     first priority under both  state and federal management                                                                    
     systems, our  regional subsistence fisheries  have been                                                                    
     given  the lowest  priority by  fisheries managers,  in                                                                    
     direct  conflict  with mandated  subsistence  priority.                                                                    
     Commercial  fishing  interests have  been  consistently                                                                    
     favored by government fisheries  managers at both state                                                                    
     and federal levels.  When did this become acceptable?                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Management  of Western  Alaska salmon  falls under  the                                                                    
     jurisdiction of  the Alaska Department  of Fish  & Game                                                                    
     and the National Marine Fisheries  Service.  Salmon are                                                                    
     managed   near-shore  and   in-river   by  the   Alaska                                                                    
     Department  of   Fish  &  Game   to  attempt   to  meet                                                                    
     escapement  goals set  for  returning  salmon runs  and                                                                    
     allow  subsistence, sport,  and  commercial fishing  to                                                                    
     occur if runs  are strong enough.   The National Marine                                                                    
     Fisheries  Service manages  salmon caught  incidentally                                                                    
     by  off-shore  trawl  fisheries  and  they  attempt  to                                                                    
     minimize  the  impact  on large-scale  Pollock  fishery                                                                    
     without  regard  for  annual  fluctuations  and  salmon                                                                    
     returns or  state management measures.   The management                                                                    
     goals   of   these    two   agencies   are   completely                                                                    
     contradictory  and these  differences have  resulted in                                                                    
     disaster for  our salmon resources  and a  crippling of                                                                    
     subsistence activities in our region.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:33:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN  pointed out that state  salmon regulations                                                               
are developed  by the Board  of Fisheries and  federal management                                                               
regulations   are  developed   by  the   North  Pacific   Fishery                                                               
Management Council.   She continued:   "Regulations  developed by                                                               
these two bodies  have placed the future of  our declining salmon                                                               
runs in  severe jeopardy,  while perpetuating  wasteful practices                                                               
by  some  commercial  fisheries  to  intercept  our  salmon  with                                                               
impunity and disregard."  The  Inupiat, Yupik, and Siberian Yupik                                                               
cultures  and  traditions  are based  on  hunting,  fishing,  and                                                               
living off  the land and these  needs are no less  important than                                                               
those of offshore commercial fisheries.   Refusal by the existing                                                               
management  regimes to  recognize  this and  protect the  fishery                                                               
stocks has  severely impacted  the people's  ability to  carry on                                                               
their subsistence practices.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN related  that  the  North Pacific  Fishery                                                               
Management  Council's  recently  adopted Chinook  Salmon  bycatch                                                               
management  plan includes  a cap  of 60,000  King Salmon  for the                                                               
Bering Sea Pollock fishery.   Given that the Pollock industry has                                                               
exceeded this bycatch number only  three times during its twenty-                                                               
year  history,  these  new  bycatch  regulations  lack  any  real                                                               
conservation  ethic, she  charged.   Kawerak  supports a  bycatch                                                               
hard  cap  for the  Pollock  fishery  of 30,000  Chinook  Salmon,                                                               
decreasing over  time, along with immediate  emergency management                                                               
measures to protect the region's declining salmon stocks.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN  stated that  the region's  salmon spawning                                                               
habitat is  some of the  most pristine  in Alaska.   For example,                                                               
she  said  fishermen in  Unalakleet  have  proposed closures  for                                                               
their  own  subsistence  Chinook  fishery to  allow  for  greater                                                               
escapement.   Subsistence users have  sacrificed a great  deal to                                                               
conserve   weak  salmon   stocks   and  the   burden  of   salmon                                                               
conservation  and restoration  must  be shared  between all  user                                                               
groups,  including  the  Pollock  and  Sockeye  fisheries.    She                                                               
pointed  out  that during  2009  the  South Peninsula/False  Pass                                                               
Sockeye fishery  harvested as  many Chum as  it did  Sockeye, the                                                               
largest amount  of Chum Salmon  bycatch in  15 years.   Yet, this                                                               
fishery continues  to operate  without a bycatch  cap.   She said                                                               
Kawerak   supports  Chum   Salmon   bycatch   limits  and   other                                                               
conservation  measures for  the  South  Peninsula Sockeye  Salmon                                                               
fishery.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN  further  noted  that  the  North  Pacific                                                               
Fishery Management  Council is currently preparing  a Chum Salmon                                                               
bycatch management  plan for the  Bering Sea Pollock  fishery and                                                               
one  option being  considered is  a bycatch  cap of  488,000 Chum                                                               
Salmon.   The Pollock industry  has only surpassed  this enormous                                                               
bycatch number  once during  its 20-year history,  she said.   It                                                               
appears that  once again Western  Alaska's salmon  resources will                                                               
be  sacrificed  to   avoid  inconveniencing  these  Seattle-based                                                               
fishermen.  Kawerak  supports a meaningful bycatch  cap and other                                                               
measures which  may actually reduce  Chum Salmon bycatch  in this                                                               
fishery.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN said the Nome  Subdistrict currently has no                                                               
commercial,  sport, or  subsistence  fisheries  that target  Chum                                                               
Salmon,  and other  regional salmon  fisheries  are under  severe                                                               
restrictions to allow  greater Chum escapement.   Yet, several of                                                               
the rivers failed to meet escapement  goals in recent years.  The                                                               
False  Pass Sockeye  Salmon fishermen  and the  federally-managed                                                               
Pollock fishery must share the burden of management options.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:38:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN moved on to  the topic of the Arctic-Yukon-                                                               
Kuskokwim  Sustainable Salmon  Initiative  (AYKSSI), noting  that                                                               
Kawerak supports  salmon conservation, restoration,  and research                                                               
efforts  that  provide  solutions   to  the  region's  continuing                                                               
subsistence  fishery  problems.    However,  one  tool  that  was                                                               
available  to aide  in finding  solutions -  the AYKSSI  - is  no                                                               
longer  an option.   She  related that  U.S. Senator  Ted Stevens                                                               
thought the  AYKSSI was  a good  idea and in  2002 it  was funded                                                               
with a  $5 million earmark  within the State of  Alaska's Pacific                                                               
Coast  Salmon  Recovery  Fund;  but this  funding  is  no  longer                                                               
available.    In 2007  a  new  process  was  set in  place  which                                                               
distributed  Pacific  Coast  Salmon   Recovery  funding  to  five                                                               
states, including Alaska, as well  as federally recognized Indian                                                               
tribes  in Washington,  Oregon,  California, and  Idaho.   Alaska                                                               
tribes  are ineligible  to apply.   Funding  of the  AYKSSI as  a                                                               
program has been  wholly curtailed and the  ADF&G commissioner is                                                               
now  using an  in-house  process, called  the Alaska  Sustainable                                                               
Salmon Fund,  for allocating Pacific Coast  Salmon Recovery funds                                                               
among  Alaska regions  and specific  projects.   While ADF&G  has                                                               
discretion to allocate  funds to the AYKSSI, it has  not done so.                                                               
Additionally, outside of the AYKSSI  program, ADF&G has made only                                                               
nominal awards  - $1.2 million  out $23.7 million in  2007/2008 -                                                               
to do research  in the AYK region.  This  amount represents about                                                               
5  percent of  the available  funding for  an area  comprising 49                                                               
percent of the state.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:41:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN  stated that  the Bering Strait  Region has                                                               
experienced  drastic  fish  declines  since the  1990s  and  fish                                                               
returns continue to  decline.  There are no other  regions of the                                                               
state  where regional  residents  are so  dependent on  returning                                                               
fish resources  for subsistence where fish  returns have declined                                                               
so  precipitously  for  such  a   long  period  where  ADF&G  has                                                               
allocated so little research funding.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:42:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN  reminded  members that  only  49  Chinook                                                               
Salmon  were counted  at the  Pilgrim River  weir.   Yet, at  the                                                               
Alaska  Sustainable Salmon  Fund  meeting on  September 8,  2009,                                                               
ADF&G applied  recovery and conservation funds  to Chinook stocks                                                               
in the  Pacific Salmon Treaty  region in Southeast Alaska.   Does                                                               
this mean  that the AYK  Region's Chinook Salmon returns  are not                                                               
depressed enough  to be addressed?   For years ADF&G  has treated                                                               
subsistence  fisheries  in  the  AYK Region  as  being  of  lower                                                               
priority  than commercial  fisheries.   This can  be seen  in the                                                               
allocation of staff, resources, attention,  and research.  It can                                                               
also be seen  in the Board of Fisheries' decision  to remove Chum                                                               
caps, and the  North Pacific Fishery Council's decision  to set a                                                               
high Chinook cap.   Using the criteria developed  by the National                                                               
Oceanic  and Atmospheric  Administration  for  the Pacific  Coast                                                               
Salmon Recovery  Fund, the  AYK Region  has an  overwhelming need                                                               
for continued research.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. RAYMOND-YAKOUBIAN related  that Kawerak respectfully requests                                                               
the  following:   that  ADF&G  be  directed  to set  aside  funds                                                               
received  from  the  Pacific  Coast   Salmon  Recovery  Fund  for                                                               
administration and  awarding by the AYKSSI  commensurate with the                                                               
research needs  of the  area to  continue needed  research within                                                               
the AYK  Region; that  ADF&G set in  place processes  whereby the                                                               
recommendations of rural Alaskans  are solicited and incorporated                                                               
into  plans to  address  salmon research  and restoration  needs;                                                               
that  the House  Resources Standing  Committee review  the unique                                                               
collaboration of  research, communication,  and joint  efforts of                                                               
the  AYKSSI steering  committee and  resultant research  projects                                                               
which  can  and  have  been used  to  make  fisheries  management                                                               
decisions;  that  the  legislature and  the  administration  send                                                               
letters  to  the  [U.S.]  Secretary of  Commerce  in  support  of                                                               
establishing  a  30,000  Chinook  hard cap  for  the  Bering  Sea                                                               
Pollock  fishery;  that  meaningful   salmon  bycatch  limits  be                                                               
established  for the  South Peninsula/False  Pass Sockeye  Salmon                                                               
fishery; and  that additional research  and restoration  funds be                                                               
made available to address the fishery concerns in Norton Sound.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:44:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN stated  he will  be requesting  the director  to                                                               
delineate how  the $5  million in  2002 and  the 5  percent [$1.2                                                               
million] in 2007/2008 from the  Pacific Salmon Recovery Fund were                                                               
appropriated.   In  response to  Representative Guttenberg,  said                                                               
the testimony of witnesses will be available online.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
2:46:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MIKE SMITH,  Tanana Chiefs Conference  (TCC), noted that  the TCC                                                               
represents 42  tribes primarily on  the tributaries of  the Yukon                                                               
River.   He reiterated that  there was an original  allocation of                                                               
money  to the  AYKSSI and  then subsequent  allocations over  the                                                               
years.   When Congress  got rid of  the congressional  earmarks a                                                               
couple of  years ago, all  of the money  was rolled into  one pot                                                               
that came to the  State of Alaska.  The state,  at that time, had                                                               
within its discretion  to distribute that money  to [AYKSSI], and                                                               
that is where  the less than 5 percent statistic  to AYKSSI comes                                                               
from.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. SMITH began  his testimony, stating that TCC  has had serious                                                               
concerns regarding the continued  viability of Yukon River salmon                                                               
for quite  a few  years.   The TCC  region has  been experiencing                                                               
steep declines  for at  least two  decades, he  said.   While TCC                                                               
feels  for the  down-river commercial  interests, the  TCC region                                                               
lost its commercial activities a long  time ago and is now losing                                                               
its subsistence activities as well.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:49:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SMITH offered  his opinion that there is no  doubt there will                                                               
be  severe effects  upon the  yearly return  of Yukon  River King                                                               
Salmon due to the major  ecological changes that are occurring in                                                               
the  environment and  the Bering  Sea from  warming temperatures,                                                               
regime shifts,  and decline in  the Pacific  Decadal Oscillation.                                                               
While  this  cannot  be  controlled,   he  said  fish  management                                                               
decisions  can  be.    However,  subsistence  users  just  cannot                                                               
compete against  the political pressure of  commercial interests.                                                               
For  example,  at the  recent  North  Pacific Fishery  Management                                                               
Council,  about  10 subsistence  users,  including  TCC, were  in                                                               
attendance, while  the commercial  interests brought in  over 100                                                               
people to testify, all of whom  had per diem and their travel and                                                               
hotel paid  for.   The AYK  Region has one  of the  most pristine                                                               
fisheries in  the world  - no agricultural  runoff, no  clear cut                                                               
forests, no huge population centers  that fish run through - yet,                                                               
most  of  the  [15]  disaster declarations  were  made  prior  to                                                               
ecological concerns; so it was management decisions, he charged.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SMITH  said  ocean productivity  goes  through  oscillations                                                               
every 20-30 years and it is  now known that ocean productivity is                                                               
in  its downward  spiral.   At  the same  time, approximately  80                                                               
million hatchery fish have been  released, so the ability of wild                                                               
stocks  to maintain  their equilibrium  and population  levels in                                                               
this type of environment is going  to be extremely difficult.  He                                                               
reported  that the  Bering-Aleutian  Salmon International  Survey                                                               
(BASIS) has  for some time seen  very few juvenile salmon  in the                                                               
Bering Sea, and this equates to low returns in the future.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:52:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SMITH  pointed out that over  the past few years  the [Bering                                                               
Sea]  Pollock  fishery  has  taken   record  levels  of  [salmon]                                                               
bycatch.  This  bycatch has been known for 20-plus  years and the                                                               
department  has  consistently,   although  maybe  rightfully  so,                                                               
failed  to  take  that  bycatch   into  account  when  doing  its                                                               
projections  of  assessment  work.    The  excuse  for  that,  he                                                               
predicted, will be  that the department did not know  how many of                                                               
those fish were bound for the  Yukon River.  However, TCC's point                                                               
is  that the  department knew  some of  them were.   He  said TCC                                                               
opposes  the bycatch  limits currently  in place.   At  the North                                                               
Pacific Fishery  Management Council,  the State of  Alaska pushed                                                               
the  resolution for  a 68,000  bycatch limit  which, fortunately,                                                               
was reduced  to 60,000;  however, TCC thought  30,000 was  a more                                                               
appropriate amount.   This shows the state's  priority in helping                                                               
commercial  interests  versus   the  terminal-use  fishermen,  he                                                               
charged.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. SMITH  concurred that  not enough money  has been  put toward                                                               
research.   However,  he said  some of  the management  decisions                                                               
made over the  past couple of decades have had  as much impact on                                                               
the decline  of Yukon River  salmon as has the  Pollock industry.                                                               
He related it is now known  that the Western Alaska salmon stocks                                                               
have been over-exploited over the  years.  Without the ability to                                                               
clearly determine  what a run is,  it is unknown whether  a stock                                                               
is being exploited,  he continued.  He said TCC  also believes it                                                               
has  suffered  through low  escapement  goals  and TCC  does  not                                                               
believe any  stocks, especially  King Salmon,  have over-escaped.                                                               
Rather, TCC's  perception has always  been that  those escapement                                                               
goals  need  to be  higher  to  fully  give the  environment  its                                                               
ability to  perpetuate as many  fish as it can.   He said  he has                                                               
attended three  of the state's escapement-goal  meetings and each                                                               
time those escapement goals have  been lowered.  Additionally, he                                                               
charged that the state's aerial  flyby method for determining how                                                               
many fish have  escaped is an inaccurate method.   The quality of                                                               
escapement  should  also  be  a  consideration,  he  said.    The                                                               
department fails to determine whether  the escapement is composed                                                               
of   non-productive  jacks   or  of   small  females,   and  such                                                               
escapements will not provide any  production.  Another concern is                                                               
that TCC fishermen  have been observing a decline in  the size of                                                               
King  Salmon,  an  observation which  ADF&G  has  largely  "pooh-                                                               
poohed" and not researched.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:59:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SMITH noted that associated with  the decline in size of King                                                               
Salmon is  the declining  age structure, which  goes back  to the                                                               
quality of  escapement.   He said  it is now  known that  the age                                                               
structures  are declining  rapidly:   8-year-old King  Salmon are                                                               
virtually extinct,  7-year-olds are also virtually  gone, and the                                                               
4-7-year-olds   are  going   through   major  fluctuations   with                                                               
continuing downward trends.   It will be very  difficult to bring                                                               
back  40-60 pound  salmon; further,  over the  last 10  years the                                                               
average weight of Yukon River  King Salmon has dropped from about                                                               
20 pounds  to 14.   He said large females  are no longer  seen in                                                               
the river and the bigger the  fish, the more eggs, the better the                                                               
eggs, and the more likely it is to get back big fish.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SMITH addressed  TCC's concern  about disease  in the  fish.                                                               
Disease has fluctuated  over the years from a high  of 30 percent                                                               
down to about  15 percent, he said.  However,  ADF&G is no longer                                                               
testing for disease.  It is  the private sector that is providing                                                               
most of  the research on diseases,  but there is no  funding from                                                               
the  state.    Another  significant   issue  is  that  ADF&G  has                                                               
interpreted  the   constitutional  provision  that   the  state's                                                               
resources be  used for  the maximum benefit  of Alaskans  to mean                                                               
managing for  maximum sustained yield  of the  state's fisheries.                                                               
Maximum  sustained yield  and  maximum use  of  resources to  all                                                               
Alaskans are  two completely  different things,  he said.   While                                                               
maximum sustained yield is a  wonderful scientific principle, the                                                               
problem is  that there must  be the information to  achieve that.                                                               
The state  does not have  this information and, once  again, this                                                               
goes  back  to the  funding  and  priorities established  by  the                                                               
department.   He charged that there  is arrogance on the  part of                                                               
the department  in thinking that it  knows what is going  on with                                                               
this issue.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. SMITH said TCC is  actively pursuing assessment tools.  There                                                               
was  no commercial  opening  on  the Yukon  River  this year,  he                                                               
reported, and  it does not look  like there will be  any openings                                                               
in the foreseeable future.   He said TCC is in  a position now to                                                               
take those biological samples and this  goes back to the issue of                                                               
involving  local people,  local  agencies, and  the fishermen  in                                                               
management  and operation  of  these fisheries.    For less  than                                                               
$150,000 this  past year,  TCC trained  and paid  its subsistence                                                               
fishermen to be  data collectors and they did a  great job.  This                                                               
is the  type of cooperation  that needs to  be done on  the Yukon                                                               
fishery, rather than  being in a constant battle  with the state.                                                               
Subsistence  users   oftentimes  find  themselves   fighting  the                                                               
science behind a lot of these decisions.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  noted  that  Mr.   Smith  is  one  of  the  top                                                               
contenders for appointment to the Board of Fisheries.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:05:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GENE  PELTOLA,  Refuge  Manager, Yukon  Delta  National  Wildlife                                                               
Refuge, U.S.  Fish and Wildlife  Service (USFWS),  summarized the                                                               
2009 season on the Kuskokwim  River from his office's standpoint.                                                               
[Due to poor  sound quality, it was difficult to  discern much of                                                               
Mr. Peltola's testimony.]   He said escapement  for salmon stocks                                                               
in the  Kuskokwim drainage is  the responsibility of  [ADF&G], as                                                               
established  by  the Board  of  Fisheries.    Some of  the  tools                                                               
utilized  include  aerial  surveys  conducted by  ADF&G  and  the                                                               
USFWS,  the  test fishery,  and  a  series  of weirs  and  sonar.                                                               
Escapement  had  mixed  success   with  about  one-third  of  the                                                               
objectives not  being met and some  that came in the  very bottom                                                               
of the  suggested range.  He  said this does not  mean the system                                                               
is  in  dire  straits;  rather,   it  means  there  is  room  for                                                               
improvement.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PELTOLA reported  that Chinook  Salmon escapement,  with the                                                               
exception of  two rivers, appears  to be below average.   Overall                                                               
run  timing for  all  species  appears to  be  fairly normal,  he                                                               
continued.   The USFWS  looks at  this decline  and trend  over a                                                               
five-year term.   Within  the Kuskokwim drainage,  a total  of 16                                                               
commercial periods occurred  in District 1 with  an estimated ex-                                                               
vessel  value of  over half  a  million dollars.   The  processor                                                               
capacity was  expanded in  2009 in the  Kuskokwim drainage.   The                                                               
USFWS  works  as a  co-manager  with  the state  for  subsistence                                                               
fisheries on the  Kuskokwim River, so refuge staff  met and spoke                                                               
with ADF&G  managers on  a regular  basis throughout  the season.                                                               
He said  ADF&G staff did an  excellent job of keeping  the refuge                                                               
informed of  its intentions  and provided  up-to-date information                                                               
for escapement  projects.  The  department sought USFWS  input on                                                               
the   decision-making   process.     Additionally,   the   refuge                                                               
participated in each  of the 15 working group meetings  to gain a                                                               
broader  perspective of  how the  fisheries were  progressing and                                                               
hear positions and/or concerns from  the public and working group                                                               
members.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:09:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PELTOLA stated that the Kuskokwim  drainage is not in as dire                                                               
straits as  others, such as the  Yukon.  He outlined  some of the                                                               
steps  that the  refuge  feels could  improve  management of  the                                                               
drainage.    As  fuel  prices  rise,  subsistence  fishermen  are                                                               
limiting  their fishing  activity to  periods of  peak abundance.                                                               
This  complicates management  decisions since  commercial fishing                                                               
periods are not supported until  subsistence needs are met.  With                                                               
increased  processing capacity,  there  may be  more pressure  on                                                               
managers  to allow  for  additional  commercial fishing  periods.                                                               
This may  increase exploitation rates  on some species  and could                                                               
potentially reduce  subsistence fishing opportunities.   Recently                                                               
there has been  a targeted Sockeye Salmon fishery,  but there are                                                               
no  formal   escapement  guidelines   fixed  for   that  fishery.                                                               
Exportation  of subsistence  cod fish  from the  region seems  or                                                               
appears  to be  on  the increase.   Another  tool  that could  be                                                               
considered  is gear  restrictions on  mesh size.   He  added that                                                               
continued funding for current projects  is always problematic and                                                               
operational  costs continually  rise.    Additional projects  are                                                               
needed  in the  Kuskokwim drainage  and can  be fine-tuned  to be                                                               
more cost  effective and  provide potentially  better information                                                               
for management decisions.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:13:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON, in regard  to going to consistent harvests                                                               
for subsistence,  inquired why wait  if it is thought  that there                                                               
is an impending problem.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. PELTOLA responded that there  is a large population center on                                                               
the Kuskokwim River and any  decision [indisc.] ... would be very                                                               
controversial.  He  reiterated that the Kuskokwim is  not in dire                                                               
straits.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:15:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOHN WHITE, D.D.S.,  pointed out that while  everyone talks about                                                               
size  and  weight  reductions  on   Yukon  King  Salmon,  equally                                                               
important is  a decrease  in fecundity.   There  just are  not as                                                               
many eggs,  he said.   While that  can be a  product of  size and                                                               
weight, fisheries  research literature indicates that  it is also                                                               
a  hallmark  of a  long-term  declining  salmon population.    He                                                               
addressed Representative  Herron's question  to Mr.  Peltola from                                                               
the  angle of  being a  35-year commercial  fisherman, an  8-year                                                               
member  of  the  Board  of  Fisheries, and  as  chairman  of  the                                                               
governing  body of  the AYKSSI.   Committee  members are  here as                                                               
fact-finders and  therefore the  committee cannot know  the whole                                                               
story  unless somebody  "speaks truth  to power,"  he said.   The                                                               
truth to power  in regard to Representative  Herron's question is                                                               
that  "you don't  wait for  a stock  of fish  to collapse  so far                                                               
before you  take action and  consideration of how you  limit that                                                               
resource among users."  He  explained that the Board of Fisheries                                                               
determines  subsistence allocations  based on  sections in  state                                                               
statute  that  deal  with amounts  reasonably  necessary.    When                                                               
allocations cannot be met with Tier  I measures - which are time,                                                               
area, and  year - then the  allocations must be met  with Tier II                                                               
measures.   And  no one  wants to  talk about  Tier II,  he said,                                                               
because it tears communities apart.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:20:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DR.  WHITE  recommended that  legislators  look  at the  statutes                                                               
carefully and work with the  policy-makers at ADF&G.  Legislators                                                               
need  to  stay  abreast  with those  policy-makers  if  they  are                                                               
dodging the  question of  Tier II.   The time  to address  how to                                                               
allocate fish  when it is  getting to a  Tier II situation  is to                                                               
address it  now, before  there is a  complete collapse  and there                                                               
are no fish.  Do it when  there are still enough fish that people                                                               
can belly up to the table and take responsibility.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
DR. WHITE disagreed with statements  that ADF&G could fund AYKSSI                                                               
but chose not  to.  Rather, he said ADF&G  is telling people that                                                               
it  cannot  make  block  grants   to  the  AYKSSI  because  of  a                                                               
Memorandum  of Understanding  (MOU) the  department has  with the                                                               
National   Oceanic   and   Atmospheric   Administration   (NOAA).                                                               
However, he  continued, today  there is  a different  opinion and                                                               
NOAA has stated  that it was ADF&G who brought  that condition to                                                               
the  MOU.    He  charged   that  both  the  Murkowski  and  Palin                                                               
administrations have  systematically high-jacked the  AYKSSI into                                                               
research under  their bailiwick so  they make  the determination,                                                               
and they  are not part  of the larger cooperative  working group.                                                               
He alleged  that there  is now  evidence that  two people  in the                                                               
ADF&G  commissioner's office  went  to  the Alaska  Congressional                                                               
Delegation  saying that  useable research  cannot be  gotten from                                                               
AYKSSI and that this was said even  though ADF&G has 2 of 8 seats                                                               
on the AYKSSI governing body and  the same number of seats on the                                                               
science  and  technical  committee.   The  AYKSSI  now  has  zero                                                               
funding.   He  suggested that  what is  going on  is antagonistic                                                               
disregard  for  Western  Alaskans.     He  said  AYKSSI  will  be                                                               
submitting to  the committee  a copy of  its annual  report along                                                               
with  its research  plan  that was  completed  with the  National                                                               
Academy of Sciences.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:26:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN requested that evidence  of the aforementioned be                                                               
provided to committee members.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
DR. WHITE agreed to do so.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:26:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DR. WHITE, in  response to Representative Herron,  stated that he                                                               
worked intimately  with previous  ADF&G commissioners  and deputy                                                               
commissioners when he was on the  Board of Fisheries.  When there                                                               
are problems  of this magnitude,  he said  he believes it  is the                                                               
commissioner's and  deputy commissioner's  job to go  to meetings                                                               
and hear the people out.   Part of this antagonistic disregard is                                                               
the commissioner's  and deputy  commissioner's inability  to even                                                               
show Western Alaskans the grace of showing up.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:28:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ROBERT NICK stated  that he writes weekly  newspaper articles and                                                               
this week,  after a five-month  break, he wrote an  article about                                                               
the subsistence  issue.   He said  that if "we  are what  we eat"                                                               
then  he is  part King  Salmon, Chum  Salmon, Red  Salmon, Silver                                                               
Salmon, Whitefish, and  Blackfish.  He said he  learned this from                                                               
his parents  and has continued  this subsistence lifestyle.   For                                                               
over 50 years he  has hunted and fished in a  radius of about 125                                                               
miles.  He can name most of  the rivers and lakes and knows where                                                               
each  species of  fish spawns.    He said  that while  he has  no                                                               
scientific figures to back up his  comments, he has a lifetime of                                                               
learning  how  to  provide  so  his  family  can  survive.    His                                                               
ancestors  were astute,  scientific,  and conservation-minded  in                                                               
regard to fish and wildlife  resources.  They harvested what they                                                               
needed  and no  more and  that is  how he  has exercised  his own                                                               
subsistence activity.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  NICK noted  that when  salmon  stocks declined  in the  mid-                                                               
1990s, he  thought about the  organizations that would  have some                                                               
input into the co-management of  white people and the subsistence                                                               
fishermen  with  ADF&G managers  and  the  North Pacific  Fishery                                                               
Management  Council.   He  subsequently became  a  member of  the                                                               
Lower Kuskokwim  Advisory Council as well  as the Yukon-Kuskokwim                                                               
Delta   Subsistence  Regional   Advisory  Council.     In   those                                                               
capacities  he  has  pursued the  co-management  concept  between                                                               
state  and  federal managers  and  the  users  on the  Yukon  and                                                               
Kuskokwim rivers.   An  agreement was made  for some  cutbacks in                                                               
subsistence  activities.    He  said he  was  hesitant  at  first                                                               
because  so many  families in  the communities  depend on  salmon                                                               
resources and  he wondered  how his family  would have  enough to                                                               
get  through the  winter.   However,  given  the alarming  salmon                                                               
decline, something had to be done.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. NICK  requested that  legislators find  ways to  minimize the                                                               
decline of  salmon resources in  the Kuskokwim and  in particular                                                               
the Yukon River.  He said any  help that can be given to families                                                               
enduring this hardship  will be appreciated.  He  urged that more                                                               
reliance be given to recommendations  made by the various Western                                                               
Alaska advisory  committees, as  well as  more reliance  given to                                                               
elders  of the  communities.   The  Yukon,  Kuskokwim, and  other                                                               
rivers have pristine spawning habitat, he added.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:39:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN inquired  whether Mr. Nick feels his  voice, as a                                                               
member of  advisory councils  and his  many life  experiences, is                                                               
heard by ADF&G staff.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  NICK  replied  yes,  the  recommendations  of  the  advisory                                                               
committees in both  rivers are heard.  He noted  that the federal                                                               
regional advisory  council's do  allow technical  elder knowledge                                                               
contracts.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:42:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON  asked whether, in Mr.  Nick's opinion, the                                                               
salmon is endangered.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. NICK  replied yes, due to  the current lax management  of the                                                               
salmon as  they migrate to the  rivers.  In further  response, he                                                               
said the  number one impact  is food  for the table;  some people                                                               
were unable  to harvest enough  to survive this winter.   Another                                                               
impact  and concern  that he  has is  for future  generations and                                                               
whether  there will  be  salmon.   Even  if  economies fail,  the                                                               
resources of the land can still provide.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:44:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JILL KLEIN,  Executive Director,  Yukon River  Drainage Fisheries                                                               
Association  (YRDFA), explained  that  YRDFA has  worked for  the                                                               
past 20 years to bring  fishermen together along the Yukon River.                                                               
The  board is  comprised of  30 members  and alternates  who work                                                               
together    by    consensus.   A    nonprofit,    nongovernmental                                                               
organization,  YRDFA   works  to  promote  healthy   wild  salmon                                                               
fisheries and  is the only river-wide  fishing organization along                                                               
the river.   She said  YRDFA supports and works  with subsistence                                                               
and commercial  fisheries.   She offered  YRDFA's belief  that in                                                               
regard to  overall management, the in-season  managers are trying                                                               
the best they can to manage  the fishery with the tools that they                                                               
have.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KLEIN stated  there  is  a lot  of  unreliability in  salmon                                                               
returns, as  well as challenges  with the past fisheries  and the                                                               
tools being  relied upon.  There  is a need for  more information                                                               
regarding the marine  lifecycle of salmon and issues  such as the                                                               
number, age, and  size of salmon needed on  the spawning grounds.                                                               
She related that  YRDFA heard the sonar was  not working properly                                                               
this past summer;  she added that Pilot Station  has had numerous                                                               
problems over the  years.  Sonar is an  important management tool                                                               
and it  needs to  be addressed  both with funds  and a  review of                                                               
best management  practices as to how  to use this tool  to manage                                                               
the fishery.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KLEIN  said  the  lower  Yukon  test  fisheries  are  always                                                               
contested by local people.   She related that management says the                                                               
test fisheries  must stay in the  same places year after  year to                                                               
have  a more  controlled  scientific process  and long-term  data                                                               
that can be relied upon.   Fishermen, however, change their sites                                                               
year  after year,  fishing in  different  places when  conditions                                                               
change  to maximize  their opportunity.    Thus, there  is a  big                                                               
discrepancy between methods of fishers  and managers.  In her ten                                                               
years  with YRDFA,  she  said  this issue  does  not  seem to  be                                                               
getting resolved.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. KLEIN noted  the importance of subsistence  and reported that                                                               
right now subsistence is the  biggest fishery on the Yukon River.                                                               
The  fish are  needed for  both  food and  culture.   Subsistence                                                               
activities have  been greatly impacted with  regulations, such as                                                               
the  windows  and  reduced  fishing time,  and,  this  year,  the                                                               
closure  of   the  first  pulse.     She  allowed   that  meeting                                                               
subsistence  needs along  the river  is  challenging and  upriver                                                               
subsistence  needs   are  just   as  important  as   lower  river                                                               
subsistence.   One  of  the  greatest challenges  is  how to  let                                                               
subsistence users fish the lower  Yukon while passing enough fish                                                               
upriver for fishing and spawning.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KLEIN  conveyed  YRDFA's support  for  including  tribes  in                                                               
management.    She  noted  that   YRDFA  has  been  working  with                                                               
management  and  includes tribal  people  in  its efforts.    The                                                               
tribes want  government-to-government relationships and to  be at                                                               
the decision-making table, she said,  and YRDFA will work to help                                                               
in this process as best it  can.  True co-management must include                                                               
all   the   government    agencies,   tribal   governments,   and                                                               
nongovernmental entities working together.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:49:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KLEIN  said the  three  top  impacts  of  salmon are:    the                                                               
potential  loss  of the  salmon,  or  the amounts  necessary  for                                                               
subsistence;  which would  then lead  to the  loss of  the people                                                               
that rely on the salmon; and  the subsequent loss of the cultures                                                               
that exist in  Alaska and make Alaska, Alaska.   To prevent this,                                                               
the salmon must be sustained, the  people need to be involved and                                                               
supportive of  the process, and  there needs  to be the  funds to                                                               
sustain the process of working together.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:51:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOHN  HILSINGER,  Director,  Division  of  Commercial  Fisheries,                                                               
Alaska  Department of  Fish &  Game, first  introduced the  other                                                               
ADF&G  staff  present and  offered  the  regrets of  Commissioner                                                               
Lloyd who  had a previously  scheduled meeting with the  Board of                                                               
Fisheries.   He noted that  the commissioner has had  meetings in                                                               
the region  in the last five  months.  He said  today's testimony                                                               
indicates  how   complicated  management  of  these   stocks  is.                                                               
Involvement  in  this management  includes:    the North  Pacific                                                               
Fishery  Management Council,  Alaska Department  of Fish  & Game,                                                               
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and  the Yukon River Panel.  They                                                               
work  together to  come up  with a  set of  management plans  and                                                               
strategies that work and it may  not be surprising that it is not                                                               
always 100 percent successful.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER  explained that the Yukon  fishery is exceptionally                                                               
difficult  to manage  because of  the size  of the  area and  the                                                               
time.  It takes  a salmon about one month to  swim from the mouth                                                               
of the Yukon River to the border.   Then it is several more weeks                                                               
before  that  salmon reaches  some  of  the spawning  grounds  in                                                               
Canada,  some of  which  are as  far as  British  Columbia.   The                                                               
result  of  a decision  made  by  a  manager  in Emmonak  is  not                                                               
apparent  until five  or six  weeks later,  which makes  managing                                                               
with precision a great challenge.   This challenge can be seen in                                                               
some of the  results - in 2007 and 2008,  escapement was short in                                                               
Canada  and many  of the  Canadian commercial  and First  Nations                                                               
fisheries had  to be cut in  half.  During those  years there was                                                               
substantial  U.S. commercial  and  subsistence  fisheries, so  in                                                               
2009 managers did not want to  be short of the escapement goal in                                                               
Canada for the third year in a row.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER described the many  challenges of managing a mixed-                                                               
stock fishery that  runs through a gauntlet of  fisheries all the                                                               
way up the  river.  The fish spawn in  numerous tributaries along                                                               
the way;  for example,  after the  fish pass  the sonar  at Pilot                                                               
Station,  a  large  number  then  go  up  the  Tanana  and  other                                                               
tributaries.   It is  difficult to assess  in-season how  many of                                                               
those Canadian fish are actually in  the run.  Great strides have                                                               
been  made  with  genetic  work   in  recent  years  for  getting                                                               
information on the size of that  Canadian run.  The run that goes                                                               
into  Canada represents  about half  of the  total Yukon  Chinook                                                               
Salmon  run, so  it is  critically important  that those  fish be                                                               
protected.     He  acknowledged  that  these   fish  are  vitally                                                               
important  to everybody  along the  river.   He pointed  out that                                                               
after the  confluence of the  Tanana River, the vast  majority of                                                               
passing  fish  are the  Canadian  fish  and  it is  necessary  to                                                               
protect those stocks.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER  stated  that ADF&G  staff  met  extensively  last                                                               
winter  with the  public  from  all along  the  river  to try  to                                                               
develop a  management strategy to  shift the  subsistence harvest                                                               
from the  Canadian portion  of the  run over  to the  U.S. stocks                                                               
which have  been much  healthier in recent  years.   He explained                                                               
that next  year's management plans  will be based on  the results                                                               
of  this year's  fisheries and  the actions  that were  taken, of                                                               
which many  of the  actions were unprecedented.   He  pointed out                                                               
that ADF&G  staff has done a  lot to garner and  use public input                                                               
to develop management  plans - for example, staff  works with the                                                               
Kuskokwim  Working  Group  and  Yukon  River  Drainage  Fisheries                                                               
Association,   and  attends   advisory  committee   meetings  and                                                               
regional advisory  council meetings.   He said ADF&G will  try to                                                               
do even more, as is being requested.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:00:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  inquired whether the  $5 million in  funding has                                                               
been used up.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER  responded that  he  thinks  much of  Dr.  White's                                                               
description of  that process was  very accurate.  He  related his                                                               
understanding that  there was  an initial  earmark of  $5 million                                                               
from  the federal  government and  subsequent  earmarks of  about                                                               
$3.5-$5 million per  year for five years, totaling  a little over                                                               
$20 million.  That money has  not been completely used up, but it                                                               
has been fully  allocated to projects, some of  which are nearing                                                               
completion and at which point that money is gone.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN asked  how  much  of the  $5  million was  spent                                                               
toward the AYKSSI.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER  explained there was  a total of about  $20 million                                                               
that was  allocated to  the AYKSSI over  a five-year  period, and                                                               
virtually all  of that  has been  spent for  the purposes  of the                                                               
initiative.  [The  AYKSSI] did a research plan  and many research                                                               
projects  have been  funded over  the years;  for example,  ADF&G                                                               
conducted  many of  those  projects and  many  were conducted  by                                                               
federal agencies and universities.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:02:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN inquired  how much  of  that money  was used  to                                                               
ensure  there was  a collaborative  effort between  all the  user                                                               
groups to have meetings in local communities and work together.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER related  his understanding that all  of the funding                                                               
was  spent on  that -  all  of that  money went  to the  research                                                               
program that was  developed by the AYKSSI.   In further response,                                                               
he  explained  that  the  AYKSSI  had an  advisory  panel  and  a                                                               
scientific/technical  committee.     People  made  proposals  for                                                               
projects,  these   were  reviewed  by   the  scientific/technical                                                               
committee, that committee made recommendations  to the panel, and                                                               
the panel then decided which projects to fund.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:04:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON  asked whether there is  a publication that                                                               
details the expenditure of those dollars.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.   HILSINGER  replied   yes   and  offered   to  provide   the                                                               
publication.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:04:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  inquired whether the department  agrees that the                                                               
sonar did not work.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER  answered that ADF&G's  programs suffered  from the                                                               
same things  the fishermen  suffered from:   high  water, debris,                                                               
and silt.   He said news  reports were incorrect about  the sonar                                                               
malfunctioning, rather the sonar  reached its limitations because                                                               
of the  high water  and silt,  similar to a  jet being  unable to                                                               
land in  the fog even though  it has instruments.   He recognized                                                               
the need  to do  a better  job with that  project because  of its                                                               
importance as the  in-season management tool along  with the test                                                               
nets.  The test nets also  showed very low catches, he continued.                                                               
In addition to the normal test  nets that operate in a consistent                                                               
location  from year  to year,  ADF&G also  had a  mesh-size study                                                               
that  used  local fishermen  who  fished  in locations  of  their                                                               
choice to see whether ADF&G was  missing large numbers of fish in                                                               
other areas, and it was learned that  this did not seem to be the                                                               
case.    He  said  ADF&G  knew   early  on  that  the  sonar  was                                                               
undercounting due  to the high water  and silt and was  very open                                                               
about  that.   The  YRDFA  sponsors  weekly teleconferences  with                                                               
people from  the mouth of the  river to the headwaters  at Teslin                                                               
Lake in which  people receive updates on the run  status, all the                                                               
projects,  as  well as  updates  from  the  people on  their  own                                                               
subsistence fishing.   Throughout this weekly  process, ADF&G was                                                               
very open  with telling people  that the early sonar  counts were                                                               
conservative  and   this  was  factored  into   the  department's                                                               
decision making.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:08:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON  requested Mr. Hilsinger to  delineate what                                                               
more ADF&G will do to garner a greater amount of public input.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER responded that one  thing he learned this summer is                                                               
that the  word does  not always get  spread very  broadly through                                                               
the communities.   For example, while a lot of  people are on the                                                               
YRDFA teleconferences and at the  various meetings, the word does                                                               
not  always get  passed along  to the  people not  in attendance.                                                               
There has  been discussion about  how to disseminate the  word so                                                               
those not involved in the meetings will know what is going on.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:09:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON asked what,  in Mr. Hilsinger's opinion, is                                                               
the number one impact on salmon.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER replied  that research  funded by  the AYKSSI  and                                                               
conducted by  ADF&G staff and Dr.  Greg Ruggerone ["Retrospective                                                               
Analysis of  AYK Chinook Salmon  Growth" by G.T.  Ruggerone, J.L.                                                               
Nielsen, and  B. Agler], found that over a  15-year period, Yukon                                                               
River  Chinook Salmon  went  through  consistent and  substantial                                                               
below-average growth at all the  different life stages from fresh                                                               
water  to  marine.   However,  in  Kuskokwim salmon  this  growth                                                               
pattern  went up  and down  between  below-average, average,  and                                                               
above-average.   He  said this  indicates to  him that  there are                                                               
some  different conditions  in the  rearing environments  and the                                                               
ocean environments  of Yukon fish  as opposed to  Kuskokwim fish,                                                               
and this  may explain some  of the concerns about  smaller salmon                                                               
and poorer  returns on the Yukon  relative to the Kuskokwim.   He                                                               
added that it  is a real open question how  the ocean environment                                                               
is going to treat these fish in the future.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:12:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  understood  there were  two  different  funding                                                               
programs.    There was  the  money  from the  Alaska  Sustainable                                                               
Salmon  Fund that  went to  the AYKSSI  program and  was used  by                                                               
2007,  and  there  was  the  $23.7  million  from  [fiscal  year]                                                               
2007/2008 that the  state received from the fund,  of which about                                                               
5 percent, or $1.2 million, was allocated for the AYK Region.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER  answered that  he does not  know exact  numbers of                                                               
the fund  because he  does not  deal with it  much, but  he knows                                                               
there were  targets for funding  by area  and the AYK  Region was                                                               
around $1.5 million, although perhaps  only $1.2 million actually                                                               
got funded.   A decision was made that changed  the allocation of                                                               
money  from  block grants,  like  that  which  AYKSSI got,  to  a                                                               
statewide  approach.   The Kenai  River Sportfishing  Association                                                               
also had  a block grant  that was switched  over, he added.   The                                                               
proposals  now  come  in  directly  to  the  department  and  the                                                               
department's    scientific/technical   committee    reviews   the                                                               
proposals and decides which ones to fund.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  pointed out  that 51 of  the 69  projects funded                                                               
through the  Alaska Sustainable Salmon Fund  were ADF&G projects,                                                               
so it can be  seen that other projects took a  back seat which is                                                               
of concern to the people speaking here today.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER offered to put together  a list of the projects and                                                               
the amounts  they were funded to  show how the money  was divided                                                               
between  the two  halves of  the state.   He  explained that  the                                                               
total  statewide  funding includes  allocations  to  a number  of                                                               
department projects in Southeast Alaska,  of which only a portion                                                               
is allocated for  expenditure west of Cape  Suckling, which would                                                               
be the Central Region, AYK, and westward.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:16:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  inquired whether there  are milestones                                                               
that happen  if the U.S. misses  the escapement for Canada.   For                                                               
example,  is  there  something   that  happens  the  first  year,                                                               
something else  that happens the  second year, and so  forth, and                                                               
when those things happen, is  there any ability to influence what                                                               
happens on the escapement issue.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER explained that the  Yukon River Panel meets twice a                                                               
year and each year sets the  escapement goal.  An escapement goal                                                               
is  actually  written   into  the  agreement,  but   due  to  the                                                               
difficulty  over  time  trying  to  meet  that  goal,  the  panel                                                               
annually sets  interim escapement goals  for each year.   Whether                                                               
there are  milestones toward that  in any given year,  depends on                                                               
how the  panel approaches it.   For a  number of years  there was                                                               
the  approach of  a two-cycle  or three-cycle  rebuilding program                                                               
over which  to reach specific escapement  targets, and management                                                               
plans were worked  out to achieve those targets.   While there is                                                               
not necessarily  a hard penalty  for not reaching that  target in                                                               
any given year, the goals are  taken very seriously by both sides                                                               
of the border.  It is  always a difficult discussion at the panel                                                               
meeting about what  that escapement goal is going to  be and what                                                               
will be done  to meet it.  Under the  agreement everyone is bound                                                               
to do their very best  to maintain adequate escapement in Canada.                                                               
Since  Canada's  escapement is  about  half  the  run, it  is  in                                                               
Alaska's  best interest  to ensure  there is  adequate escapement                                                               
into Canada.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:20:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG  asked  whether the  determination  of                                                               
what constitutes half  the run is made at the  mouth of the river                                                               
or  is an  overall expectation  of what  will be  coming in.   He                                                               
further asked whether this includes bycatch.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER responded  that it  is not  that half  of the  run                                                               
belongs  to Canada,  it is  that the  fish that  spawn in  Canada                                                               
produce about half  of the run.   Therefore, maintaining adequate                                                               
escapement in Canada is necessary  to continue that same relative                                                               
level  of  production   to  the  extent  that   it  is  possible.                                                               
Additionally,   those  Canadian   fish  are   extremely  valuable                                                               
commercially because  of their high  oil content.  These  are the                                                               
fish that  swim through  the entire Alaska  portion of  the Yukon                                                               
River;  therefore they  are the  vast majority  of the  fish that                                                               
Alaskans  in the  upper Yukon  depend upon.   He  reiterated that                                                               
getting  adequate  escapement  is  not done  because  these  fish                                                               
somehow  belong to  Canada, but  because these  fish are  such an                                                               
important resource.   The  way this works  in practical  terms of                                                               
harvest is  that the agreement  includes catch shares.   The U.S.                                                               
receives about 75 percent of  the catch of those Canadian Chinook                                                               
and the  Canadians get  about 25  percent, so  the U.S.  gets the                                                               
lion's share of the benefit of those stocks.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG  said  he   would  like  to  hear  the                                                               
Canadian perspective  on what  is adequate,  what is  25 percent,                                                               
and  how  Canadians view  U.S.  management,  given that  Alaska's                                                               
people  on the  river do  not believe  a good  management job  is                                                               
being done.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:24:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CRAIG   FLEENER,  Director,   Division  of   Subsistence,  Alaska                                                               
Department of Fish & Game, noted  that he is originally from Fort                                                               
Yukon,  Alaska.   He said  previous witnesses  provided excellent                                                               
subsistence information  and he  will therefore  remain available                                                               
for questions rather than make a presentation.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:26:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE EDGMON  inquired where  ADF&G is  in terms  of its                                                               
overall  budget  request  relative  to today's  discussion.    He                                                               
further  asked  what  the  director  would like  to  see  in  the                                                               
department's budget that is not included at this point.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER  explained  that his  department  works  with  the                                                               
Office  of  Management  &  Budget   (OMB)  to  put  together  the                                                               
governor's  budget, which  will  be out  in mid-December  [2009].                                                               
The department  has put together  its requests and is  waiting to                                                               
see how they fare against all  the other requests.  He said ADF&G                                                               
rates the needs of the Yukon  River very highly.  Five increments                                                               
were funded  by the legislature  last year.   It is too  early to                                                               
tell what  the governor  is going  to do,  but the  department is                                                               
hopeful Governor Parnell will look favorably upon the Yukon.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:27:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE EDGMON  surmised ADF&G  is looking  for additional                                                               
resources  to address  the lower  Yukon situation,  but that  the                                                               
aforementioned is all Mr. Hilsinger can divulge at this time.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER answered  correct.    Once it  is  known what  the                                                               
governor has  decided to request,  there will be  the possibility                                                               
of taking  another shot  at it in  the governor's  amended budget                                                               
and sometimes those requests come  in through the legislature and                                                               
sometimes the governor.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:29:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON  asked whether the Division  of Subsistence                                                               
is allowed to be a strong advocate for subsistence.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. FLEENER replied  he has a lot of flexibility  in working with                                                               
Commissioner Lloyd, who  has asked a lot of questions  of him and                                                               
given him the freedom to talk  about issues.  Therefore, he would                                                               
have to  say that subsistence  is pretty important.   However, he                                                               
pointed  out, the  real  problem  is that  there  is  not a  full                                                               
understanding by all  Alaskans as to what  subsistence really is.                                                               
Some of the  problems faced by the division are  that people from                                                               
different parts of the state  think differently about subsistence                                                               
- some  do not  believe there are  subsistence users  even though                                                               
the state  has a  priority, potentially,  for all  Alaskans; some                                                               
believe that  they are 100  percent subsistence users;  and there                                                               
is a gradient in between.  This  makes it really tough when he is                                                               
trying to  encapsulate the subsistence  issue, especially  in the                                                               
subsistence debate.   When  he goes  into the  rural communities,                                                               
those residents believe  they know what subsistence is.   When he                                                               
goes   into   urban   communities,  those   residents   have   an                                                               
understanding  of subsistence.   The  many different  ideas about                                                               
what subsistence means is very  problematic for him, he stressed.                                                               
He said  he thinks the boards  treat it differently as  well, and                                                               
so does the legislature.  The  department does place a high value                                                               
on  subsistence and  it has  to because  it is  the priority,  he                                                               
pointed out.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:33:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MARTIN  MOORE  reported that  on  September  8, 1968,  Mr.  Jacob                                                               
Johnson  and  Robert  Nick  received   money  from  the  Economic                                                               
Development Administration  (EDA) to  start an  economic stimulus                                                               
in  the  Yukon  and  Kuskokwim  rivers.   The  Yukon  Delta  Fish                                                               
Marketing   Cooperative    received   $775,600    and   Kuskokwim                                                               
Fishermen's   Cooperative   received   $662,500.     Other   fish                                                               
processing  enterprises  invested  as well,  including  Mr.  Axel                                                               
Johnson  and various  canneries  and processors.    In regard  to                                                               
Bering  Sea  fisheries,  he  said   these  past  fish  processing                                                               
companies were  multi-million dollar investments  and operations,                                                               
although  he  believes it  was  more  like billions  of  dollars.                                                               
However,  the above  processing plants  have closed  their doors,                                                               
leaving jobless people.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MOORE  stated that in 2003  there were 703 permit  holders in                                                               
"Y 1,  2, and 3."   These  permit holders are  business operators                                                               
and have much  investment in the fishing industry.   In 2003 they                                                               
paid fish permit licenses in the  amount of $42,900 to the state.                                                               
Today  they are  experiencing the  same financial  constraints as                                                               
the  commercial fish  processors of  the past.   Lack  of fishing                                                               
since the  fishery disaster in  the year  2000 lingers on.   From                                                               
1977-1999,  the  total  income  value  of  commercial  salmon  to                                                               
fishermen  totaled  $158,838,080.   This  equates  to an  average                                                               
[annual] income for  the commercial fishermen in "Y 1,  2, and 3"                                                               
of  $6,906,003.   Lots  of  income  continued  in 2003,  with  an                                                               
average income  of $3,322  to each  of the  570 [fishermen].   In                                                               
2004, 607  participated in the  fishing industry and  the average                                                               
income was $4,000 [per participant].   In 2005, average income to                                                               
each of  the 598 fishermen was  $3,000.  In 2006,  average income                                                               
to  each of  the 594  participants was  $4,946.   He offered  his                                                               
opinion that  commercial fish  processors and  private commercial                                                               
permit holders  should qualify  for the  same recognition  in the                                                               
financial  packages   authorized  by   President  Obama   in  the                                                               
[American  Recovery  and  Reinvestment  Act  of  2009]  that  was                                                               
received by  manufacturing companies  in the  Lower 48.   Finding                                                               
new alternatives to business enterprises  is the next solution in                                                               
addition to escalating energy costs, he added.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. MOORE,  in reference to  the subsistence issue, said  two 18-                                                               
hour  openings  per  week  for   Chinook  Salmon  have  not  been                                                               
acceptable  for  those whose  dependence  is  the highest.    The                                                               
closure of  fall Chum  and Coho  salmon was  a hindrance  to many                                                               
people  who  depend  on  them for  subsistence  food  in  winter.                                                               
"Dependence on  fisheries of subsistence is  the major importance                                                               
for many of our people," he  said, "especially for those that are                                                               
jobless."  It was unacceptable  to have only two 24-hour openings                                                               
for fall Chums  and Cohos for subsistence users.   [The sonar] at                                                               
Pilot  Station is  not dependable,  he  continued, otherwise  the                                                               
fishermen at  Wade Hampton census  district should not  have been                                                               
so badly hampered.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:42:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DANI    EVENSON,    Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim   Regional    Research                                                               
Supervisor, Division  of Commercial Fisheries,  Alaska Department                                                               
of Fish & Game, addressed what  the department is doing about the                                                               
concerns  being   heard  today.     Yukon  River   fisheries  are                                                               
challenging, she explained.  There  are three mouths to the river                                                               
with  numerous side  channels and  the wind  and tides  can carry                                                               
fish  in virtually  any direction.   Managers  are challenged  to                                                               
quickly  and accurately  assess the  runs.   It is  a mixed-stock                                                               
fishery  and  it  is  difficult to  prosecute  one  fishery  over                                                               
another  when  certain  stocks  are weak.    The  department  has                                                               
challenges with its assessment projects  just from the sheer size                                                               
of the river.  For that  reason, management looks at an aggregate                                                               
of projects:   the  test fishery and  Pilot Station  sonar, which                                                               
are  primary  in-river  projects;  age composition  of  the  run,                                                               
genetic  composition   of  the   run;  and   subsistence  harvest                                                               
information.  In  years like this when  the department's projects                                                               
are challenged due  to high water, it is  the subsistence harvest                                                               
that identifies this is a problem.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. EVENSON said  the department recognizes the  lower Yukon test                                                               
fishery nets  are not  in good  sites.   The eddies  shifted this                                                               
year due  to the prolonged  flooding and amount of  sediment, and                                                               
are no longer  comparable with historical data.   Next year ADF&G                                                               
will enter Emmonak  earlier to re-evaluate the sites  and will be                                                               
looking to local people for  identifying the most appropriate net                                                               
sites.  In regard to the  Pilot Station sonar, she noted there is                                                               
an  ongoing  study that  is  independently  validating the  sonar                                                               
estimates using genetics.  The  data from that study is currently                                                               
being analyzed  and results should  be available within  the next                                                               
year.   The department is  looking into the use  of side-scanning                                                               
sonar  to get  further  off-shore during  high  water, high  silt                                                               
events.  An evaluation of the  test fishing program will occur by                                                               
testing  larger,  longer  nets  and fishing  of  different  sites                                                               
because sonar can only capture  numbers of fish, not the species.                                                               
The  department has  already begun  looking at  alternative sites                                                               
for  the  sonar,  she  continued, and  has  done  transects  both                                                               
upriver and  downriver from the current  location.  Additionally,                                                               
the  department  will be  looking  at  its species  apportionment                                                               
model to  see if adjustments  can be  made there.   She cautioned                                                               
that no  project will  ever be  perfect as  there will  always be                                                               
high water  and low water;  however, the department is  doing the                                                               
best it can.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:48:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOHN   LINDERMAN,  Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim   Regional  Supervisor,                                                               
Division  of Commercial  Fisheries, Alaska  Department of  Fish &                                                               
Game, first noted  that he oversees both  the research management                                                               
and administrative  programs for the commercial  fisheries within                                                               
the AYK  Region.  He  said some of  the testimony today  has been                                                               
heard before and some is new  information.  In regard to how much                                                               
the  department  incorporates  and  listens to  the  public  with                                                               
respect   to  management   actions   and   strategies,  he   said                                                               
information   is  solicited   from  the   fishers.     Management                                                               
strategies  cannot   be  successful  without   incorporating  the                                                               
public's knowledge and the department's buy-in, he noted.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. LINDERMAN pointed  out that this year the  department faced a                                                               
very difficult  situation on  the Yukon because  it did  not feel                                                               
that at least  a portion of the  run was going to  be adequate to                                                               
provide  for all  the needs  of subsistence  fishermen throughout                                                               
the  drainage.   The  department tried  to  take actions  through                                                               
public input on  how to best address that.   He acknowledged that                                                               
some things  could have been  done better and there  are probably                                                               
things  the   department  can  do  differently   in  the  future.                                                               
Information will be  evaluated into the winter and  there will be                                                               
further  discussions and  outreach  to the  public  as to  future                                                               
management strategies.  He said it  is important to listen to the                                                               
public  and incorporate  those ideas  with respect  to management                                                               
actions because the people on  the ground know the resource well.                                                               
Both parties can learn from each other, he added.                                                                               
                                                                                                                              
Informational hearing on HB 227 HOLITNA BASIN RESERVE                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:50:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN announced  that the next order of  business is an                                                               
informational   hearing  on   HOUSE   BILL  NO.   227,  "An   Act                                                               
establishing state  fish and game reserves;  creating the Holitna                                                               
River  Basin   Hunting,  Fishing,   and  Trapping   Reserve;  and                                                               
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  turned  over   the  hearing  to  Representative                                                               
Herron.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:51:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HERRON   explained  that  establishment   of  the                                                               
Holitna River  Basin Hunting, Fishing,  and Trapping  Reserve has                                                               
been proposed  by the  people in this  region for  several years,                                                               
and the legislature is now moving forward with it.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:52:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GREG ROCZICKA, Director,  Natural Resource Program, Orutsararmuit                                                               
Native Council, first noted that  Orutsararmuit Native Council is                                                               
the tribal  governing body in  Bethel.   He further noted  he has                                                               
been involved  in the front  lines of resource  management issues                                                               
at regional,  state, and international  levels for over  20 years                                                               
and he served  two terms on the Board of  Game, including serving                                                               
as chairman.   He said  the Holitna drainage has  been recognized                                                               
for its productive  values and contributions to  the Kuskokwim as                                                               
a whole.   It was  initially considered for protection  under the                                                               
Alaska  National Interest  Lands Conservation  Act (ANILCA)  as a                                                               
National Wildlife  Refuge or  Wild and Scenic  River, but  it did                                                               
not get included.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROCZICKA related  that area  residents have  been requesting                                                               
the Holitna  drainage be established  as a refuge since  the mid-                                                               
1980s.   It  is an  extremely productive  area of  Western Alaska                                                               
that  has provided  a large  diversity of  subsistence and  other                                                               
harvest  opportunity ever  since statehood.   It  is the  largest                                                               
drainage  feeding the  Kuskokwim watershed  and is  prime habitat                                                               
for moose, bear, caribou, and furbearers.   In addition, it is an                                                               
important rearing  and staging  area for  all species  of salmon,                                                               
including a unique species of  river spawning and rearing sockeye                                                               
not  found  in  any  other  area of  the  state.    Recent  radio                                                               
telemetry studies funded  by AYKSSI monies - which  have now been                                                               
decreased by 400 percent -  and the federal Office of Subsistence                                                               
Management found that one-third  of the Chinook Salmon, one-third                                                               
of the  Chum, two-thirds  of the Sockeye,  and one-fourth  of the                                                               
Coho running  the Kuskokwim  spawn in the  Holitna drainage.   He                                                               
pointed out  that the Kuskokwim  drainage provides 50  percent of                                                               
the  total  Chinook Salmon  subsistence  harvest  for the  entire                                                               
state of Alaska.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROCZICKA  specified that the  Holitna is also unique  in that                                                               
its productive habitat encompasses a  wide area rather than being                                                               
confined  to a  relatively narrow  river corridor.   He  said the                                                               
Holitna drainage is what can be  called a breadbasket area.  This                                                               
concept could  be transferred to  other sub-regions of  the state                                                               
that  have similar  high quality  habitat  and productivity  that                                                               
would  qualify   them  for  an   elevated  level   of  management                                                               
protection.    He  cited  Game  Management  Unit  (GMU)  20E  and                                                               
portions of GMU 13 as examples of other breadbasket subregions.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:58:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROCZICKA reviewed what HB 227 does  not do.  He said it would                                                               
not preclude or  prevent any of the  activities currently allowed                                                               
on  state-managed lands.    It would  not  override any  existing                                                               
management  authorities of  affected  state management  agencies.                                                               
It   would  not   prevent  or   preclude  any   existing  access,                                                               
conditions, or  requirements.  It  would not change  any existing                                                               
hunting, fishing, or trapping regulations.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROCZICKA  pointed out that what  HB 227 will do  is create an                                                               
elevated  oversight  and  implementation  of  Alaska's  Intensive                                                               
Management  Law to  ensure maintenance  of these  activities into                                                               
the future  and prevent policy  and administrative  reluctance to                                                               
conduct  active management  such  as  predator control  programs.                                                               
The  legislation would  close the  loopholes that  animal welfare                                                               
organizations have used to stop  [predator control] programs.  It                                                               
would do this  by requiring the use of biological  science as the                                                               
burden of proof  rather than political science.   For example, he                                                               
said the  Holitna River  used to  be one  of the  most productive                                                               
areas in  the region  for moose  hunting and  was utilized  by 23                                                               
villages.  However,  in 2006, ten years after  [Ballot Measure 3]                                                               
shut  down the  [predator  control] programs  in  that area,  the                                                               
Holitna River was entirely closed to hunting.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
5:01:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON stated that in  a meeting he had with them,                                                               
both the Alaska  Department of Fish & Game and  the Department of                                                               
Natural Resources (DNR) supported HB 227.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. ROCZICKA added  that in 2006 or 2007 a  proposal was in front                                                               
of  the  Board of  Game  to  make  the  Holitna a  separate  game                                                               
management  unit.   At that  same time,  initial legislation  was                                                               
drafted,   but  due   to  political   complications  from   other                                                               
legislation and  ballot initiatives it  did not go forward.   The                                                               
record from that time includes  formal statements of support from                                                               
the  Lower   Kuskokwim  Advisory  Committee,   Central  Kuskokwim                                                               
Advisory Committee,  Stony-Holitna Advisory  Committee, Anchorage                                                               
Advisory  Committee, Board  of Game,  and Kuskokwim  River Salmon                                                               
Management Working  Group.  He said  "Sleetmute and Orutsararmuit                                                               
Native Councils"  sponsored resolutions  at that time  which were                                                               
unanimously  supported  by  the Association  of  Village  Council                                                               
Presidents and  there was also  a letter of support  from Calista                                                               
Corporation.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:02:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  ROCZICKA  pointed  out  that  this  proposal  has  undergone                                                               
extensive public  and administrative  review and that  that input                                                               
has  been incorporated.   So  far it  has received  very positive                                                               
response,  most of  which has  been primarily  from the  wildlife                                                               
conservation side,  but state agencies cannot  officially support                                                               
it until  the administration  does.  Right  now, there  is formal                                                               
support  from the  Board of  Game.   The Board  of Fisheries  has                                                               
referred the  issue to its  habitat committee until such  time as                                                               
legislation  is actually  on the  table.   He will  speak to  the                                                               
Board of Fisheries tomorrow during its work session, he noted.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
5:04:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GRANT FAIRBANKS stated he has lived  on and worked on the Holitna                                                               
River for  36 years.   He said he has  worked, as well,  with the                                                               
Sleetmute  Traditional Council  for 36  years trying  to get  the                                                               
Holitna River the recognition it deserves.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. FAIRBANKS, in response to  Co-Chair Neuman, said the mouth of                                                               
the Holitna River  is located 250 miles upriver from  Bethel.  He                                                               
recalled that in 1978 or  1979 the Alaska National Interest Lands                                                               
Conservation  Act   (ANILCA)  included  the  Holitna   River  for                                                               
designation as a Wild and  Scenic River because studies showed it                                                               
was a very  unique part of the  United States.  At  that time the                                                               
State of  Alaska and  the federal  government were  battling over                                                               
ownership of  the Holitna River.   The state took  over ownership                                                               
and since  then the  Village of Sleetmute  and other  people have                                                               
been trying  to get the state  to recognize the Holitna  for what                                                               
it is and give  it the protection it needs.   He related that the                                                               
Holitna River is  a spawning area for all species  of salmon, and                                                               
that  one-third  to one-half  of  all  the  salmon spawn  in  the                                                               
Holitna.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FAIRBANKS added  that he  has  attended 11  hearings and  30                                                               
meetings over the  last 30-some years trying to  garner some type                                                               
of protection for  the Holitna River.   He thanked Representative                                                               
Herron for  sponsoring HB  227 and Mr.  Roczicka for  writing the                                                               
bill.   This is  not just about  salmon, he pointed  out.   It is                                                               
about  moose.   Many years  ago when  the state  was writing  the                                                               
Kuskokwim  Area Plan,  a gigantic  overlay was  taken to  all the                                                               
villages  in  this area.    Twenty-five  villages indicated  that                                                               
their  residents  hunted  moose  up the  Holitna.    He  recalled                                                               
counting boats  and moose  hunters in the  early 1980s  and cited                                                               
one hunting season in which there  were 600 moose hunters and 300                                                               
boats, and the  hunter success rate was 60 percent.   There is no                                                               
hunting there now,  he continued, but the stocks  are being built                                                               
back up.   This legislation  is about salmon,  moose, furbearers,                                                               
and all the animals up there.   He concluded, "We are just trying                                                               
to get  a bill passed that  will give it some  protection so that                                                               
people in the state of Alaska  will see that the highest and best                                                               
use  of that  area is  a  ... breadbasket;  it is  a place  where                                                               
people  can hunt  and fish  and  trap and  we need  some type  of                                                               
protection  for that  so  that we  can quit  going  to all  these                                                               
hearings...."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
5:08:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HERRON described  the  Kuskokwim-Holitna area  as                                                               
being a piece of  heaven.  He said he will  be requesting that HB
227 be scheduled  as early as possible in January  [2010] and the                                                               
House Special Committee on Fisheries  will be the first committee                                                               
of hearing  and the  House Resources  Standing Committee  will be                                                               
the second.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                              
^Current  state   of  the  Arctic/Yukon/Kuskokwim   (AYK)  salmon                                                             
fisheries                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                              
5:09:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  announced that the  next order of business  is a                                                               
return to the topic of AYK salmon fisheries.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HERRON asked  whether the  salmon in  any of  the                                                               
main river systems of the AYK Region are threatened.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. EVENSON responded  that threatened is not the  term she would                                                               
use to  describe it.  She  said extreme volatility has  been seen                                                               
in the runs,  particularly in the Yukon River.   While there have                                                               
been low runs,  there have also been a couple  of good runs, such                                                               
as the 2005 run.  Although it  is not great and not the sustained                                                               
level that was seen in the  1980s, it is reasonable.  Escapements                                                               
were met,  subsistence uses were  met, and there  were reasonable                                                               
commercial fishing opportunities.  She  said that right now Yukon                                                               
Chinook are  listed as  a stock  of concern,  as is  Norton Sound                                                               
[fall  Chum Salmon],  and the  department  is using  conservative                                                               
management to address that.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
5:11:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HERRON  inquired whether  consistent  subsistence                                                               
harvest should be implemented now rather than later.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LINDERMAN replied  his primary  concern with  taking such  a                                                               
tact is  that once  there are  tiered-type fisheries,  it becomes                                                               
extremely difficult  to get out  of those fisheries.   The impact                                                               
that  it  would   have  on  subsistence  fishers   in  regard  to                                                               
opportunity  and  ability to  utilize  those  resources would  be                                                               
substantial.  He  said he thinks that everyone -  the public, the                                                               
departments, federal agencies  - would want to  ensure that going                                                               
in that direction  is absolutely necessary before such  a step is                                                               
taken.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON  asked whether  that is  not what  is being                                                               
done  now even  though  it  is being  called  windows instead  of                                                               
tiers.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. LINDERMAN  said he  thinks the department  would need  to see                                                               
similar actions  taken over a  much longer time period  than what                                                               
has  been  seen so  far.    He  acknowledged  that the  level  of                                                               
unprecedented action taken for management  this year on the Yukon                                                               
is  "certainly  maybe  pushing  that  envelope  with  respect  to                                                               
tiers."   However, he said  that question cannot yet  be answered                                                               
because  the  department  still  needs  to  get  its  subsistence                                                               
harvest estimates and see whether  or not subsistence fishers had                                                               
the ability to  catch everything they needed for the  season.  He                                                               
said that testimony  today, as well as testimony  from the public                                                               
in general,  shows that many  people had  a lot of  difficulty in                                                               
achieving their needs.   Once the department  has its subsistence                                                               
harvest estimates, he continued, it  will have a much better idea                                                               
of how that compares to  previous years.  The subsistence fishing                                                               
schedule, which was  one of the actions implemented  in 2001 when                                                               
the stock  of concern designation  was placed on  Chinook Salmon,                                                               
was   designed  to   still  provide   adequate  opportunity   for                                                               
subsistence fishers while trying to  spread that harvest out over                                                               
a larger  portion of the run  and meet upriver needs,  as well as                                                               
to achieve  the treaty obligations  into Canada for Chinook.   It                                                               
is  not  at  the level  of  a  tiered  fishery  as long  as  that                                                               
opportunity  is being  provided for  subsistence fishers  to meet                                                               
their needs.   Although  some folks  may feel  that ADF&G  is not                                                               
doing  that, the  amounts necessary  or reasonably  necessary for                                                               
subsistence have  been achieved in  the years since  the schedule                                                               
was put in place.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN   allowed  members   of  the  audience   to  ask                                                               
questions.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:16:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DR. WHITE inquired why not discuss  with a rational public how to                                                               
limit  a  fishery before  it  completely  collapses, rather  than                                                               
waiting  until it  does collapse  and  trying to  hold that  same                                                               
discussion, which  is what  happened when  Nome was  placed under                                                               
Tier II.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. LINDERMAN answered that it  comes down to the resiliency that                                                               
is inherent to  salmon populations in general - it  is not just a                                                               
single year.  He  pointed out that in 2009 it  was not the entire                                                               
Yukon River  stock that was  of concern, it was  specifically the                                                               
Canadian  portion of  the stock  for which  there was  concern in                                                               
achieving adequate escapement.   The resiliency of populations to                                                               
rebound  from negative  conditions that  result in  poor runs  is                                                               
significant  within salmon  populations.    The department  would                                                               
need to  see [poor runs]  for more than  a single year  before it                                                               
would feel the need for a Tier II-type fishery.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
DR. WHITE  said his question was  not answered because he  is not                                                               
saying to go to Tier II, rather  he is saying to discuss with the                                                               
public  what elements  should be  included in  a Tier  II fishery                                                               
should the stock collapse in the future.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LINDERMAN  said he  questions  the  necessity of  discussing                                                               
"what-if  scenarios" with  the public  because  this could  cause                                                               
unnecessary worry and alarm in the public.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
5:19:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN interjected that  the department has acknowledged                                                               
it  is trying  to continue  with an  outreach program  to discuss                                                               
things with  local people and  that it  is probably time  to talk                                                               
about possibilities.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
DR. WHITE  suggested talking with people  and having transparency                                                               
prior  to  stock   collapse,  as  opposed  to   having  the  same                                                               
discussion when  there is  all the  emotional turbulence  after a                                                               
collapse.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:21:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON  asked whether the department  is extremely                                                               
concerned about where the fish stocks are at.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. LINDERMAN  replied yes.   He  said this  is reflected  in the                                                               
current processes the  state has in place with  respect to stock-                                                               
of-concern designations  for Yukon Chinook  as well as  fall Chum                                                               
within Norton Sound.  He said  the Kuskokwim is a good example of                                                               
where  he was  coming from  in  answer to  Dr. White's  question.                                                               
Five years ago,  these same questions were being  asked in regard                                                               
to both Chinook and Chum salmon  on the Kuskokwim, but since then                                                               
there  has been  a remarkable  turnaround and  the Kuskokwim  has                                                               
seen  tremendous  runs,  especially  with  Chum.    The  Tier  II                                                               
question was  raised at that time  and this is where  his concern                                                               
comes  from with  respect to  creating unnecessary  alarm in  the                                                               
public.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:23:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN observed  that when  it comes  to fisheries  the                                                               
issues are similar  regardless of location within the  state.  He                                                               
asked  Mr. Hilsinger  to share  what  discussions managers  might                                                               
have amongst themselves when making management decisions.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER  agreed and said that  many times over the  last 20                                                               
years he has  thought about how similar the upper  Cook Inlet and                                                               
the  Yukon actually  are.   Both are  mixed-stock, mixed-species,                                                               
gauntlet-style  fisheries  with  a  long  time  lag  between  the                                                               
fisheries at  one end and  the fisheries at  the other.   At 2000                                                               
miles long, the Yukon's problems  are multiplied dramatically, he                                                               
added.   Managers go through  the process every year  of thinking                                                               
how the management  can be adapted.  One example  is the analysis                                                               
that  staff  did  on  the  Canadian  escapement  goal.    It  was                                                               
discovered that the  means by which the  Canadians were assessing                                                               
the escapement  into Canada  was flawed,  and there  was actually                                                               
about  twice as  many fish  crossing the  border as  was thought.                                                               
Things  were  re-analyzed  and   adjustments  were  made  in  the                                                               
escapement goal that  will be of benefit to people  on both sides                                                               
of the border.  The work  to better assess those escapement goals                                                               
will continue.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. HILSINGER  explained that managers  will look closely  at the                                                               
actions taken this  year, such as the closure on  the first pulse                                                               
to shift harvest  off the Canadian fish.  Decisions  will be made                                                               
when managers  have next year's  forecast and after  sitting down                                                               
with people along the river to get  their ideas as well.  He said                                                               
it is  important to him that  the department do a  better job and                                                               
try to improve the precision in  management.  He pointed out that                                                               
on  one  hand   the  department  is  criticized   for  being  too                                                               
restrictive while  at the  same time there  is concern  about the                                                               
viability of the run.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HILSINGER noted  that many  of the  management actions  have                                                               
significant  implications for  people.   For example,  a Tier  II                                                               
fishery would  basically mean the  end of the  commercial fishery                                                               
on the Yukon, and testimony was  given as to what that would mean                                                               
to  people  on the  lower  river.    The  impacts can  be  vastly                                                               
different at  different places along  the river, he  pointed out,                                                               
so  managers  want  to  be  extremely  careful  when  considering                                                               
actions.   Managers do  want to  work more  on Pilot  Station and                                                               
there are  ideas for projects  to try to  improve that and  get a                                                               
better understanding of  how the fish move through  there as well                                                               
as  a  better understanding  of  species  apportionment.   It  is                                                               
difficult  to  be  specific  at  this  point  until  next  year's                                                               
forecasts are received and staff has met with the public.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:31:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HERRON  thanked  witnesses and  stated  that  the                                                               
committee needs to take this information and move forward.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN said  everyone loses  when there  is not  enough                                                               
escapement and  Alaskans are  in this  together.   The government                                                               
should be working with the people;  the people should not have to                                                               
worry about  administration of the  fisheries and should  be able                                                               
to feed  their families.   Work will  continue on  these problems                                                               
and it will be a cooperative effort.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
^Energy   issues   including  transportation   corridor   to/from                                                             
Paimuit/Kalskag                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                              
5:35:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR NEUMAN  announced that  the final  order of  business is                                                               
the transportation corridor between Paimuit and Kalskag.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
5:36:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MIKE HOFFMAN,  Executive Vice  President, Association  of Village                                                               
Council   Presidents  (AVCP),   stated  he   is  on   the  Denali                                                               
Commission's  Transportation  Advisory   Committee,  as  well  as                                                               
several  other boards  in  the  region.   He  explained that  the                                                               
proposed  transportation  corridor  is   a  road  connecting  the                                                               
closest points between  the Kuskokwim River and  the Yukon River,                                                               
a distance  of 32  miles.   He said he  likes to  think of  it as                                                               
connecting  the  two  lifelines  to rural  Alaska  that  is  much                                                               
needed.  This  road would help with the  region's energy problems                                                               
and would also help the lower Yukon fishing disaster.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN  noted that in  1931 the "road commission"  agreed to                                                               
build two tramways connecting 72  miles between the Kuskokwim and                                                               
the Yukon at  Kalskag and Russian Mission.  In  1969 the villages                                                               
of Kalskag  and Russian Mission  wanted to  fix this up,  but did                                                               
not have means or the money to  do so.  To illustrate that things                                                               
have  not  changed  over  the  decades,  he  read  the  following                                                               
excerpts  from the  summary  report  of a  1981  State of  Alaska                                                               
feasibility study for putting in a canal:                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Many  young people  are finding  it necessary  to leave                                                                    
     the  smaller   villages  for  Bethel,   Fairbanks,  and                                                                    
     Anchorage  in search  of jobs.    Potential exists  for                                                                    
     jobs and income at the  local level from a renewable to                                                                    
     nonrenewable  resource development.   This  development                                                                    
     cannot  take  place   without  adequate  transportation                                                                    
     needs.  Also needed  are lower transportation rates for                                                                    
     refined  petroleum   products  and   alternatively  low                                                                    
     energy  cost for  the  availability  of propane,  coal,                                                                    
     wood,  and  hydropower.   The  connection  between  the                                                                    
     Yukon and  Kuskokwim rivers  can play  a major  role in                                                                    
     Alaska's  evolving energy  plan by  means of  supplying                                                                    
     Alaska-produced fuel  and fuel products to  lower Yukon                                                                    
     and  Kuskokwim  river  districts  into  Western  Alaska                                                                    
     coasts.   Without  such  a  connection Western  Alaskan                                                                    
     heating oil needs  will continue to be  supplied by the                                                                    
     U.S.  West  Coast at  a  heavy  economic drain  to  the                                                                    
     state.   Interior-produced  coal  and  the benefits  of                                                                    
     abundant, less  expensive North  Slope-produced propane                                                                    
     would be  excluded for  Western Alaska  use.   The best                                                                    
     means for  providing the Yukon-Kuskokwim crossing  is a                                                                    
     heavy-duty gravel  road with a  dock at each end.   The                                                                    
     best  location  is  a   33-mile  route  extending  from                                                                    
     Kalskag Airport  on the Kuskokwim  River to a  point on                                                                    
     Paimuit Slough.   This selected means and  route is the                                                                    
     least   environmentally   intrusive  than   any   other                                                                    
     proposed joining  of the  two rivers.   It is  the most                                                                    
     efficient  to operate  and maintain  and it  serves the                                                                    
     greatest number of  people.  It will also  be the least                                                                    
     expensive inter-connection.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
5:41:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOFFMAN  related   that  the  1981  project   goal  was  "to                                                               
facilitate transportation,  lower costs of living,  spur resource                                                               
development and local employment,  and provide basic improvements                                                               
that could  lead to a wider  market for Alaska's suppliers."   He                                                               
pointed out  that this  remains the same  today and  that because                                                               
general cargo and  heating fuel supplies for  Western Alaska must                                                               
presently  be  ordered  almost exclusively  from  the  Lower  48,                                                               
Western Alaska feels  more closely tied to Seattle  than the rest                                                               
of Alaska.   Even  if the  proposed Yukon-Kuskokwim  crossing did                                                               
not lower prices for Western  Alaska, the eventual realization of                                                               
the alternative marketplace would stem  from the flow of outgoing                                                               
dollars and  help draw the  state together by  allowing purchases                                                               
and delivery  from within.   Bringing together the two  halves of                                                               
Alaska is  more important than  immediately achieving  a positive                                                               
cost/benefit ratio.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN said  AVCP obtained funds from  the Denali Commission                                                               
and matched them through its  own transportation department to do                                                               
another feasibility  study - a route  reconnaissance that started                                                               
this fall and will continue into  spring 2010.  Mapping will take                                                               
place in  May 2010 and at  that time the report  will be reviewed                                                               
and the cost estimates on the road will be updated.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
5:43:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOFFMAN  recalled that  last  year  "ARCO"  and "BP"  had  a                                                               
meeting in Fairbanks at which  a gasline was discussed that would                                                               
come down  to a  point on  the lower Yukon  River where  a bullet                                                               
line would  be built  across to  the Kuskokwim.   It  was further                                                               
indicated  in  this  discussion  that the  cost  of  propane  and                                                               
natural  to Western  Alaska  would  be reduced  to  50 cents  per                                                               
gallon.    He related  that  the  state's transportation  mission                                                               
statement says  the state will  put funds where they  will affect                                                               
the most  people.  However,  he argued,  at some point  the state                                                               
needs  to step  up  an effort  to reduce  energy  costs in  rural                                                               
Alaska.  Cost  of fuel is outrageous in this  region and any help                                                               
from the state would be much appreciated.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:46:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  recounted that  on  September  15, 2009,  Harry                                                               
Noah, Project Manager  for the In-State Gas  Project, included in                                                               
his  proposal a  10-inch  or 12-inch  natural  gas spur  pipeline                                                               
running from Nenana to Southwest Alaska.   The goal for an Alaska                                                               
stand-alone pipeline is flow by  2015, with eventual expansion to                                                               
assist in the development of  Donlin Creek Mine and other mineral                                                               
sites between  Bethel and  Nenana.  The  pipeline would  be built                                                               
via  a  winter   road  over  three  seasons   and  would  include                                                               
suspending the  pipeline over the  rivers.  This could  very well                                                               
be  the start  of a  pioneer road  to Western  Alaska that  could                                                               
reduce  the cost  of living,  create jobs,  and provide  economic                                                               
diversity.    He related  a  discussion  in which  Representative                                                               
Herron  said to  him  that  some people  in  Western Alaska  like                                                               
living in  the region because it  is not connected and  some look                                                               
at  a  connection  as  an  opportunity  for  jobs,  schools,  and                                                               
economic development.   He asked  for Mr. Hoffman's  viewpoint in                                                               
this regard.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN responded that AVCP  has committed through compacting                                                               
with  56  villages and  about  20  villages have  compacted  with                                                               
AVCP's transportation.   He said  AVCP is  going to build  up the                                                               
infrastructure   in  all   of  the   compacted   villages.     He                                                               
acknowledged that  would not lower the  cost of fuel and  food in                                                               
those  villages,  and  said  he  believes what  is  needed  is  a                                                               
connection  between rural  Alaska  and urban  Alaska.   One  such                                                               
connection could be  from Nenana downriver to  his proposed road.                                                               
This 32-mile road  would be one of the first  connections that he                                                               
is  talking about  for  the  region.   None  of  the region's  56                                                               
villages is  connected by road  - all transportation is  via air,                                                               
and the cost of aviation here is outrageous.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:51:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HERRON surmised  that Mr.  Hoffman is  suggesting                                                               
that Representative  Neuman, as  co-chair of the  House Resources                                                               
Standing Committee,  get behind  a 32-mile  road between  the two                                                               
largest  river  systems in  Alaska,  given  that former  Governor                                                               
Palin's  suggested project  for  a  transportation corridor  from                                                               
Fairbanks to Nome will take a long time to happen.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN added that  he is not asking the state  to do this on                                                               
its  own, rather  AVCP has  already started  this process  and is                                                               
looking for the state to partner with it.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:53:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  NEUMAN  opined  that  this   is  doable  and  that  the                                                               
probability  of shipping  propane  down the  Yukon  River from  a                                                               
gasline is very real.   He urged Mr. Hoffman to not  give up.  He                                                               
thanked everyone for participating in the hearing.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HERRON offered his thanks to participants.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:55:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 5:55 p.m.                                                                 

Document Name Date/Time Subjects